UKTC Archive

RE: Time to think - INSURANCE

Subject: RE: Time to think - INSURANCE
From: Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
Date: Dec 23 2003 09:05:40
A couple of thoughts sprint to mind:

Domestic contractors: my home insurance covers me for people employed in the
circumstances you suggest.
As I work from home my home insurance also covers me for Public liability
for clients visiting my premises. It also covers for my cleaner.

PI/PL and EL My Professional indemnity and Products liability policies state
clearly that I must only employ bona fide and fully insured tradesman for
any installation work I co or contract to do.  I am covered to quote for a
job, design the installation, supervise the manual work and commission the
equipment. My sub contractor must be covered for himself and his employees
and for his liabilities in terms of damage caused by his activities. I am
specifically not insured to carry out manual work!

So my EL position is clearly defied by mypolicy.

I was advised that if I employ a tradesman directly my EL/PL premium will
rise from £1K to £10K- NOT an incentive to become a local employer or build
a business. I have argued the case with the local enterprise agency to no
avail- they seem only to encourage business start-up but not actually do
anything useful to help a business grow and expand- ah sorry mate, youre
self employed now is your problem and your risk...

Merry Christmas

Gavin

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall
3G Energi,

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-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-bounce@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
[mailto:uktc-bounce@xxxxxx.tree-care.info]On Behalf Of Cameron Gibson
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 8:38
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Time to think - INSURANCE

Just caught up on the last few messages on this topic and trying to
understand the ins and outs of insurance.  One comment from Jim has made my
ears prick up as it relates to a situation we have at the moment regarding
prosecutions.

Jim Q states "If you employ someone, you are responsible for their EL
insurance.  Just
because they may have their own personal insurance protection, or have EL
for anyone working for them, strictly speaking you are still the employer."

I have been informed by our legal department that there is a marked
difference between employing somebody and getting somebody to do a job for
you i.e sub contracting to do work for you.  I cant remeber the full ins and
outs (you know what legal advisors are like with their technical stuff) but
it would make sense to me.

If Jim Q's statement were true, would I have to take out insurance for the
man coming to fix the electrics on my house next week?


jq@xxxxxx.freeserve.co.uk 22-Dec-03 9:48:03 PM >>>
Ken,
If you employ someone, you are responsible for their EL insurance.  Just
because they may have their own personal insurance protection, or have EL
for anyone working for them, strictly speaking you are still the employer.
You cannot ascribe your legal responsibilities to others.
While working for you their insurance is superfluous.  However, they may
need it for other work they do out of your employ.
If a claim were to be made, your insurers would be in the firing line - the
employees' insurers would pass the claim on like a hot potato.
If it went to Law, the outcome would of course be dependent upon the
idividual case circumstances.  However, if you relied upon the expectation
that you would not bear liability, that stance would be likely to be
considered unreasonable.
The legal responsibility would not be decided by a court in the first
instance on the basis of who was or was not insured.
There is an interesting parallel with PI insurance with LA Officers.  Some
choose to carry their own policy along with the cover provided through the
Council, just in case they are found to be personally responsible.  PI is
not a statutory obligation and to be frank, I'm not sure how policies that
have a potential overlap work.
In general terms, if you insure to a level that is regarded by the
profession as being appropriate, or to a client's requirements, a court is
unlikely to make an award that exceeds your insurance cover.  This is on the
basis that in effect you have acted reasonably.
You will note that the level of cover for EL is sometimes unlimited, but
often £10mill for each event!
Play safe and disregard your employees'  EL insurance - make sure that YOU
are covered.
Regards,
Jim Q

----- Original Message -----
From: <Treecheck@xxxx.com>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: Time to think - INSURANCE


Jim

I agree with everything you have said but you havnt given me a solid
answer
to the question and a solution to the problem.

If I employ a sub to carry out a fell and remove the law requires that we
both insure the same risk for EL and the same turnover so to speak but if
there
is a claim it will only be one claim against one of us.  If the law would
decide against whom the claim should proceed that party would insure and
the other
would not need to.

In this example I should test and trust my subs and arrange the cover or
should it be the other way around?

Making a dash for the mince pies

Ken



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