UKTC Archive

RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

Subject: RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster
From: Howe, Ron
Date: Sep 07 2017 13:39:27
You're right Jim ... there's no golden rule in real life. 

As for the Local Authority Building Control 10 year guarantee that was also 
recently (now maybe 5 years ago) reinforced through a court case which held 
the LPA responsible for unforeseen damage to a building somewhere and it also 
dictated how long the LPA should keep their files. It caused a bit of a 
dilemma here which is why I got involved. Fortunately, heave assessments are 
the responsibility of the customer and their engineer, and LABC would require 
engineer design foundations for heave risk. So that 10 years has a far more 
reaching impact on LABCs ... as always, it's the Council's fault as they can 
afford to throw away 'your' money on self underwritten insurance and 
compensation claims. We even have people who used NHBC building control 
services come after our teams!

Bill, where do you want to draw the line in the sand?

Ron Howe
Tree Officer (Planning)
Mole Valley District Council
Tel. 01306 XXX XXX


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Jim Quaife
Sent: 06 September 2017 16:09
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

The 10 years is merely the guarantee period of NHBC (despite the foundation 
design being based on the eventual mature height of a tree), and when the LA 
Guarantee scheme came in in 2007 they went for 10 years as well so as to 
match the schemes.  This decade has nothing to do with any specification, it 
is the guarantee period. 
Persistent moisture deficiency can take anything up to ten years or more to 
correct, dependent upon site and meteorological conditions.  Biddle cites an 
exceptional case when the recovery period was 25 years and counting!(page 92).
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Howe, Ron
Sent: 06 September 2017 12:23
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

Mmmm, the ground tends to recover at a consistent rate Bill because of 
equilibrium and the rate at which clay can respond, regardless of extreme 
weather patterns and because average annual rainfall is pretty consistent in 
good old Blighty. That’s why they say allow three years for recovery ... just 
in case something really unusual happens. Usually, the worst effects of soil 
recovery are within the next season from what I can remember from Biddle and 
Dowson et.al.

Ron Howe
Tree Officer (Planning)
Mole Valley District Council
Tel. 01306 XXX XXX


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
Sent: 05 September 2017 18:07
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

The heave risk ought to take account of future drought events and subsequent 
rainfall oughtn't it? Whether the soil is currently desiccated or not is not 
really a consideration. (I don't consider this to be shooting your hat off 
Andrew....) Bill.

On 5 September 2017 at 17:22, "Andrew Belson" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
wrote:

Dear Will and Collective,

I rarely put my head above the parapets as when I do, I usually get my 
hat shot off....

That said, here's my opinion.

You say the site is cleared.  In that case, all you need to know for 
the heave risk is: 'is the soil desiccated? (at or below foundation depth)'
Soil testing will tell you that.  The vegetation present is irrelevant 
(so far as heave calculation is concerned).

Heave = recovery; therefore, no desiccation = no volume to recover.

In relation to foundation design, if pushed for a 'water demand' for a 
Cotoneaster then I'd say 'medium' based on the fact that the NHBC have 
put most of the Rosaceae trees in that part of Table 12.

I'd put Pittosporum in 'Low' because of the (relatively) slow growth 
and hard leaves.  However, as others have pointed out, if you don’t 
know, you have to assume worst case for the NHBC to be happy.

The final point I want to make is that I think we should collectively 
avoid referring to roots 'below foundations'.  My preference being 'at 
foundation depth'.  This is because I think it perpetuates the 
layman's understanding of how trees cause damage.

Regards,

Andrew




-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:uktc-request@lists.
tree-care.info] On Behalf Of will ross
Sent: 05 September 2017 10:59
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

I agree with both answers in this case the site has been cleared and 
the engineer is trying to work out the so called water demand of the 
trees/shrubs that were there to design for potential  heave, in 
reality I agree with Jim as far as rooting depth and also general 
conditions including vitality of particular specimens.
Again many thanks , any further thoughts would be welcome.

Will

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:uktc-request@lists.
tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Liam McKarry
Sent: 05 September 2017 10:46
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

I've always thought 'Water Demand' was a silly term.

Plants remove water from the soil, anything that can root under 
foundations can therefore remove water from clay causing it to reduce 
in size meaning that foundations will move downward. Whether it's high 
demand or low demand seems a bit arbitrary.

If differential movement has occurred where the plant is and there are 
roots beneath the foundations it's a good bet that it's either the 
sole cause or a contributing factor (in combination with other 
trees/shrubs
nearby) to the clay shrinkage.



Liam McKarry
Arboricultural Officer (Planning) • Corporate and Place Services   •
Colchester Borough Council • www.colchester.gov.uk


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-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:uktc-request@lists.
tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Jim Quaife
Sent: 05 September 2017 10:23
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

Water demand is a term that is understood and in common usage, but the 
trees with the higher WD are generally those better able to root 
deeply - coincidence eh??
I doubt that there are any data so if you need to be definite it would 
have to be a trial hole to discover the rooting depth profile.
I know that pyracantha is a bad boy in subs, but usually when grown 
against the wall.  I have no idea about cotoneaster.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:uktc-request@lists.
tree-care.info] On Behalf Of will ross
Sent: 05 September 2017 10:06
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

Hi,

    Does anyone have an idea of water demand for a cotoneaster, I am 
working from a third party report and the engineer is requesting 
further detail, the estimated height was 8m so I presume it was one of 
the large shrub/tree type such as waterii, also they have asked for 
the water demand of Pittosporum which I can't find. Any help would be 
welcome.



Will




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