UKTC Archive

Re: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

Subject: Re: Water Demand of Cotoneaster
From: Bill Anderson
Date: Sep 07 2017 14:36:41
Somewhere near the point where we can say "it's nothing to do with the
tree; it's entirely your building that's at fault" Ron. And as I see it, if
you design a foundation that only considers trees that are already present,
rather than trees that might be planted (and grown, and removed) in the
future, then it's not really an adequate foundation. Getting these things
right at an early stage is likely to be a relatively minor cost in
comparison to future rectification. Innit? Especially when our current rate
of house-building seems to suggest houses have got to last a couple of
millennia.

Bill.





On 7 September 2017 at 14:39, Howe, Ron <Ron.Howe@xxxxxxxxxxx.gov.uk> wrote:

You're right Jim ... there's no golden rule in real life.

As for the Local Authority Building Control 10 year guarantee that was
also recently (now maybe 5 years ago) reinforced through a court case which
held the LPA responsible for unforeseen damage to a building somewhere and
it also dictated how long the LPA should keep their files. It caused a bit
of a dilemma here which is why I got involved. Fortunately, heave
assessments are the responsibility of the customer and their engineer, and
LABC would require engineer design foundations for heave risk. So that 10
years has a far more reaching impact on LABCs ... as always, it's the
Council's fault as they can afford to throw away 'your' money on self
underwritten insurance and compensation claims. We even have people who
used NHBC building control services come after our teams!

Bill, where do you want to draw the line in the sand?

Ron Howe
Tree Officer (Planning)
Mole Valley District Council
Tel. 01306 XXX XXX


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:uktc-request@lists.
tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Jim Quaife
Sent: 06 September 2017 16:09
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

The 10 years is merely the guarantee period of NHBC (despite the
foundation design being based on the eventual mature height of a tree), and
when the LA Guarantee scheme came in in 2007 they went for 10 years as well
so as to match the schemes.  This decade has nothing to do with any
specification, it is the guarantee period.
Persistent moisture deficiency can take anything up to ten years or more
to correct, dependent upon site and meteorological conditions.  Biddle
cites an exceptional case when the recovery period was 25 years and
counting!(page 92).
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:uktc-request@lists.
tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Howe, Ron
Sent: 06 September 2017 12:23
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

Mmmm, the ground tends to recover at a consistent rate Bill because of
equilibrium and the rate at which clay can respond, regardless of extreme
weather patterns and because average annual rainfall is pretty consistent
in good old Blighty. That’s why they say allow three years for recovery ...
just in case something really unusual happens. Usually, the worst effects
of soil recovery are within the next season from what I can remember from
Biddle and Dowson et.al.

Ron Howe
Tree Officer (Planning)
Mole Valley District Council
Tel. 01306 XXX XXX


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:uktc-request@lists.
tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
Sent: 05 September 2017 18:07
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

The heave risk ought to take account of future drought events and
subsequent rainfall oughtn't it? Whether the soil is currently desiccated
or not is not really a consideration. (I don't consider this to be shooting
your hat off Andrew....) Bill.

On 5 September 2017 at 17:22, "Andrew Belson" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
wrote:

Dear Will and Collective,

I rarely put my head above the parapets as when I do, I usually get my
hat shot off....

That said, here's my opinion.

You say the site is cleared.  In that case, all you need to know for
the heave risk is: 'is the soil desiccated? (at or below foundation
depth)'
Soil testing will tell you that.  The vegetation present is irrelevant
(so far as heave calculation is concerned).

Heave = recovery; therefore, no desiccation = no volume to recover.

In relation to foundation design, if pushed for a 'water demand' for a
Cotoneaster then I'd say 'medium' based on the fact that the NHBC have
put most of the Rosaceae trees in that part of Table 12.

I'd put Pittosporum in 'Low' because of the (relatively) slow growth
and hard leaves.  However, as others have pointed out, if you don’t
know, you have to assume worst case for the NHBC to be happy.

The final point I want to make is that I think we should collectively
avoid referring to roots 'below foundations'.  My preference being 'at
foundation depth'.  This is because I think it perpetuates the
layman's understanding of how trees cause damage.

Regards,

Andrew




-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:uktc-request@lists.
tree-care.info] On Behalf Of will ross
Sent: 05 September 2017 10:59
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

I agree with both answers in this case the site has been cleared and
the engineer is trying to work out the so called water demand of the
trees/shrubs that were there to design for potential  heave, in
reality I agree with Jim as far as rooting depth and also general
conditions including vitality of particular specimens.
Again many thanks , any further thoughts would be welcome.

Will

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:uktc-request@lists.
tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Liam McKarry
Sent: 05 September 2017 10:46
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

I've always thought 'Water Demand' was a silly term.

Plants remove water from the soil, anything that can root under
foundations can therefore remove water from clay causing it to reduce
in size meaning that foundations will move downward. Whether it's high
demand or low demand seems a bit arbitrary.

If differential movement has occurred where the plant is and there are
roots beneath the foundations it's a good bet that it's either the
sole cause or a contributing factor (in combination with other
trees/shrubs
nearby) to the clay shrinkage.



Liam McKarry
Arboricultural Officer (Planning) • Corporate and Place Services   •
Colchester Borough Council • www.colchester.gov.uk


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-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:uktc-request@lists.
tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Jim Quaife
Sent: 05 September 2017 10:23
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

Water demand is a term that is understood and in common usage, but the
trees with the higher WD are generally those better able to root
deeply - coincidence eh??
I doubt that there are any data so if you need to be definite it would
have to be a trial hole to discover the rooting depth profile.
I know that pyracantha is a bad boy in subs, but usually when grown
against the wall.  I have no idea about cotoneaster.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:uktc-request@lists.
tree-care.info] On Behalf Of will ross
Sent: 05 September 2017 10:06
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Water Demand of Cotoneaster

Hi,

    Does anyone have an idea of water demand for a cotoneaster, I am
working from a third party report and the engineer is requesting
further detail, the estimated height was 8m so I presume it was one of
the large shrub/tree type such as waterii, also they have asked for
the water demand of Pittosporum which I can't find. Any help would be
welcome.



Will




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