UKTC Archive

Re: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit Management Plan

Subject: Re: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit Management Plan
From: Wayne Tyson
Date: Dec 23 2017 03:30:06
Thanks to everyone for a most useful discussion. As I am a foreigner, and
not experienced in the contexts under discussion, I can contribute nothing
directly on-point. As to the legal aspects I am no better informed with
respect to my own country (USA).

I am only part-way into my study of related phenomena, but I should
probably mention two of the most striking revelations (anecdotal at this
point, so they cannot be statistically justified). One is that, of the many
tree failures I have looked into (mostly those that resulted in deaths and
injuries, great property damage, or were notable contributions in some
other way), nearly all involved easily detectable signs of imminent failure
and/or gross mismanagement. The other is that official reports have, in my
view, been grossly misleading, apparently intentionally so, or due to
incompetence and/or unwarranted if traditional assumptions unsupported by
evidence to the point of appearing to be the result of licking the hands
that fed the authors. Of course, I find the failure of the authorities to
treat such cases, especially when deaths or injuries are involved, to treat
the site as a crime scene, and preserving rather than destroying evidence,
particularly egregious if not criminal, especially if collusion or
deception are involved.

Governmental arborists here tend to be preservationists to an absurd
extreme. We have cases similar to the hollow cherry tree recently
mentioned, hollowed and rotting on the inside; "healthy" on the outside, to
the casual observer. I am ashamed that such clear cases of potential
failure are commonly ignored in this country whilst in the UK such
foolishness is apparently not tolerated. I am also convinced that the UK
arborists apppear to be much more professional and better educated.

Please do not allow my contributions to distract the discussion; they are
only submitted as "food for thought."

Wayne

On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 10:07 AM, John Flannigan <jdflannigan@xxxx.com>
wrote:

This is one of the fundamental issues of risk management in arboriculture.
Judges can only judge on the evidence and if they are faced with witnesses
who are tree focused and not risk management experts tree owners will be
always looking over their shoulder because they will be expected to have
unrealistic and disproportionate knowledge of their trees.
John
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 22/12/17, Paul Muir <PaulMuir@xxxxxxxxxx.co.uk> wrote:

 Subject: RE: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit Management Plan
 To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
 Date: Friday, 22 December, 2017, 13:37

 My concern is that as long as
 arboricultural "experts" misinform the courts that
 regardless of the level of risk, context or appropriate
 allocation of resources we haven't done a proper job
 unless we've taken one particular approach (of revealing
 the base of a tree and banging it), then we can't be
 sure of the outcome of any legal case - at least at the
 lower levels. That doesn't mean that we should be
 advising our clients to undertake grossly disproportionate
 expenditure.

 In reality, if
 a council adopts a policy and strategy and sets out it's
 approach in a structured way I think we are being hugely
 nervous and risk averse to think that they would be exposed
 in any way. After all the policy will state, as a defining
 principle, that we can't eliminate risk and we won't
 be able to find every tree that might pose a risk - that
 isn't a reasonable expectation.



 Paul Muir
 Principal Arboricultural Consultant
 Treework Environmental Practice
 Mobile: 07966 XXXXXX
 Head
 Office:  0117 XXX XXXX
 www.treeworks.co.uk

 Monarch House, 1-7 Smyth Road, Bedminster,
 Bristol, BS3 2BX


 Treework Environmental Practice Covers the
 UK

 London and South East
 – Birmingham and Midlands –
 Bristol and
 South West – Wales – Manchester and North

 Treework Environmental
 Practice is the trading name of Treework Services Ltd.
 Registered Office & Place of Registration:
 Treework Services Ltd, Monarch House, 1-7 Smyth Road,
 Bedminster, Bristol, BS3 2BX

 Reg No.: 1621606
 VAT No.: 397 XXXX XX

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 -----Original Message-----
 From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
 [mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info]
 On Behalf Of Philip Wilson
 Sent: 22 December
 2017 13:05
 To: UK Tree Care
 Subject: RE: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit
 Management Plan

 Hi Paul,
 Thanks. What I was trying to get at was an
 informed view, speculative though it no doubt would have to
 be, of the legal position. Would it not be true to say that
 the courts can be quite uncompromising when it comes to tree
 inspection frequency/standard? Could they conceivably take
 the view that actually there is an acceptable threshold to
 satisfy the duty of care? Perhaps there's no
 satisfactory answer - but accepting that wouldn't be
 quite the same as dismissing the question.
 Philip

 -----Original Message-----
 From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
 [mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info]
 On Behalf Of Paul Muir
 Sent: 22 December
 2017 12:36
 To: UK Tree Care
 Subject: RE: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit
 Management Plan

 Hi
 Philip

 This has been
 expressed by a number of contributors. Can I just clarify
 that this is NOT about austerity, limited budgets or
 insufficient budgets. It relates simply to whether
 expenditure is reasonably practicable or grossly
 disproportionate. To imply that taking a certain approach is
 somehow cutting corners is missing the point.

 I thought that David's
 last post was really clear. I wonder how we have got to the
 point where one type of survey approach that has the
 potential to pick up a certain limited range of issues is
 seen to be the ideal approach, yet we are completely
 comfortable that we have very little information about roots
 or crown limbs. Somehow that's fine as long as we've
 looked at all sides of the bole. I don't get it.


 Paul Muir
 Principal Arboricultural Consultant
 Treework Environmental Practice
 Mobile: 07966 XXXXXX
 Head
 Office:  0117 XXX XXXX
 www.treeworks.co.uk

 Monarch House, 1-7 Smyth Road, Bedminster,
 Bristol, BS3 2BX


 Treework Environmental Practice Covers the
 UK

 London and South East
 – Birmingham and Midlands – Bristol and South West –
 Wales – Manchester and North

 Treework Environmental Practice is the trading
 name of Treework Services Ltd.
 Registered
 Office & Place of Registration: Treework Services Ltd,
 Monarch House, 1-7 Smyth Road, Bedminster, Bristol, BS3
 2BX

 Reg No.: 1621606
 VAT No.: 397 XXXX XX

 This email including attachments is intended
 for the addressed recipient only.  It may contain
 confidential information and may be subject to legal,
 professional or other privilege. It must not be copied,
 disclosed or used by any other person.  If you are not the
 intended recipient, please notify the sender and then delete
 from your system immediately.

 Treework Environmental Practice does not
 guarantee the attachments or enclosures are secure or
 virus-free.

 -----Original
 Message-----
 From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
 [mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info]
 On Behalf Of Philip Wilson
 Sent: 22 December
 2017 12:06
 To: UK Tree Care
 Subject: RE: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit
 Management Plan

 David,
 Julian expressed concern that tree risk could
 not be adequately evaluated from a walk-by inspection. You
 responded that it's a matter of degree and expediency,
 and went on to be rather dismissive of the concern.

 Do we in fact have confidence
 that 'budgetary constraints' would be an acceptable
 defence if a tree inspected in a walk-by caused harm (if
 arising from a defect only visible from the unseen side of
 the tree)?
 Philip

 -----Original Message-----
 From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
 [mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info]
 On Behalf Of David
 Sent: 21 December 2017
 06:52
 To: UK Tree Care
 Subject: RE: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit
 Management Plan

 Hi
 Julian

 Though I appreciate
 you taking the time to make your comments.  Unfortunately,
 as I started to go through them point by point, and began to
 work on a reply, it dawned on me that right from the first
 sentence there's almost nothing you've written with
 which I agree.  On some points you're demonstrably
 wrong.  And even on the few marginal ones, I struggle to
 see the value to either of us, or the forum, of trying to
 pursue this.  In my draft to date reply I'm contesting
 almost every line you've typed and it's just going
 to end up with one of the those threads where I quote you 10
 times and reply, and everyone will lose the will to live.
 Sorry.

 Cheers

 Acer ventura




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 Trees arboricultural consultancy http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/



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 The UKTC is supported by Bosky
 Trees arboricultural consultancy
 http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/




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http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/




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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/