Thanks to everyone for a most useful discussion. As I am a foreigner, and
not experienced in the contexts under discussion, I can contribute nothing
directly on-point. As to the legal aspects I am no better informed with
respect to my own country (USA).
I am only part-way into my study of related phenomena, but I should
probably mention two of the most striking revelations (anecdotal at this
point, so they cannot be statistically justified). One is that, of the many
tree failures I have looked into (mostly those that resulted in deaths and
injuries, great property damage, or were notable contributions in some
other way), nearly all involved easily detectable signs of imminent failure
and/or gross mismanagement. The other is that official reports have, in my
view, been grossly misleading, apparently intentionally so, or due to
incompetence and/or unwarranted if traditional assumptions unsupported by
evidence to the point of appearing to be the result of licking the hands
that fed the authors. Of course, I find the failure of the authorities to
treat such cases, especially when deaths or injuries are involved, to treat
the site as a crime scene, and preserving rather than destroying evidence,
particularly egregious if not criminal, especially if collusion or
deception are involved.
Governmental arborists here tend to be preservationists to an absurd
extreme. We have cases similar to the hollow cherry tree recently
mentioned, hollowed and rotting on the inside; "healthy" on the outside, to
the casual observer. I am ashamed that such clear cases of potential
failure are commonly ignored in this country whilst in the UK such
foolishness is apparently not tolerated. I am also convinced that the UK
arborists apppear to be much more professional and better educated.
Please do not allow my contributions to distract the discussion; they are
only submitted as "food for thought."
Wayne
On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 10:07 AM, John Flannigan <jdflannigan@xxxx.com>
wrote:
This is one of the fundamental issues of risk management in arboriculture.
Judges can only judge on the evidence and if they are faced with witnesses
who are tree focused and not risk management experts tree owners will be
always looking over their shoulder because they will be expected to have
unrealistic and disproportionate knowledge of their trees.
John
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 22/12/17, Paul Muir <PaulMuir@xxxxxxxxxx.co.uk> wrote:
Subject: RE: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit Management Plan
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Date: Friday, 22 December, 2017, 13:37
My concern is that as long as
arboricultural "experts" misinform the courts that
regardless of the level of risk, context or appropriate
allocation of resources we haven't done a proper job
unless we've taken one particular approach (of revealing
the base of a tree and banging it), then we can't be
sure of the outcome of any legal case - at least at the
lower levels. That doesn't mean that we should be
advising our clients to undertake grossly disproportionate
expenditure.
In reality, if
a council adopts a policy and strategy and sets out it's
approach in a structured way I think we are being hugely
nervous and risk averse to think that they would be exposed
in any way. After all the policy will state, as a defining
principle, that we can't eliminate risk and we won't
be able to find every tree that might pose a risk - that
isn't a reasonable expectation.
Paul Muir
Principal Arboricultural Consultant
Treework Environmental Practice
Mobile: 07966 XXXXXX
Head
Office: 0117 XXX XXXX
www.treeworks.co.uk
Monarch House, 1-7 Smyth Road, Bedminster,
Bristol, BS3 2BX
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UK
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– Birmingham and Midlands –
Bristol and
South West – Wales – Manchester and North
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Practice is the trading name of Treework Services Ltd.
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-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info]
On Behalf Of Philip Wilson
Sent: 22 December
2017 13:05
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit
Management Plan
Hi Paul,
Thanks. What I was trying to get at was an
informed view, speculative though it no doubt would have to
be, of the legal position. Would it not be true to say that
the courts can be quite uncompromising when it comes to tree
inspection frequency/standard? Could they conceivably take
the view that actually there is an acceptable threshold to
satisfy the duty of care? Perhaps there's no
satisfactory answer - but accepting that wouldn't be
quite the same as dismissing the question.
Philip
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info]
On Behalf Of Paul Muir
Sent: 22 December
2017 12:36
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit
Management Plan
Hi
Philip
This has been
expressed by a number of contributors. Can I just clarify
that this is NOT about austerity, limited budgets or
insufficient budgets. It relates simply to whether
expenditure is reasonably practicable or grossly
disproportionate. To imply that taking a certain approach is
somehow cutting corners is missing the point.
I thought that David's
last post was really clear. I wonder how we have got to the
point where one type of survey approach that has the
potential to pick up a certain limited range of issues is
seen to be the ideal approach, yet we are completely
comfortable that we have very little information about roots
or crown limbs. Somehow that's fine as long as we've
looked at all sides of the bole. I don't get it.
Paul Muir
Principal Arboricultural Consultant
Treework Environmental Practice
Mobile: 07966 XXXXXX
Head
Office: 0117 XXX XXXX
www.treeworks.co.uk
Monarch House, 1-7 Smyth Road, Bedminster,
Bristol, BS3 2BX
Treework Environmental Practice Covers the
UK
London and South East
– Birmingham and Midlands – Bristol and South West –
Wales – Manchester and North
Treework Environmental Practice is the trading
name of Treework Services Ltd.
Registered
Office & Place of Registration: Treework Services Ltd,
Monarch House, 1-7 Smyth Road, Bedminster, Bristol, BS3
2BX
Reg No.: 1621606
VAT No.: 397 XXXX XX
This email including attachments is intended
for the addressed recipient only. It may contain
confidential information and may be subject to legal,
professional or other privilege. It must not be copied,
disclosed or used by any other person. If you are not the
intended recipient, please notify the sender and then delete
from your system immediately.
Treework Environmental Practice does not
guarantee the attachments or enclosures are secure or
virus-free.
-----Original
Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info]
On Behalf Of Philip Wilson
Sent: 22 December
2017 12:06
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit
Management Plan
David,
Julian expressed concern that tree risk could
not be adequately evaluated from a walk-by inspection. You
responded that it's a matter of degree and expediency,
and went on to be rather dismissive of the concern.
Do we in fact have confidence
that 'budgetary constraints' would be an acceptable
defence if a tree inspected in a walk-by caused harm (if
arising from a defect only visible from the unseen side of
the tree)?
Philip
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info]
On Behalf Of David
Sent: 21 December 2017
06:52
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: RE: VALID Tree Risk-Benefit
Management Plan
Hi
Julian
Though I appreciate
you taking the time to make your comments. Unfortunately,
as I started to go through them point by point, and began to
work on a reply, it dawned on me that right from the first
sentence there's almost nothing you've written with
which I agree. On some points you're demonstrably
wrong. And even on the few marginal ones, I struggle to
see the value to either of us, or the forum, of trying to
pursue this. In my draft to date reply I'm contesting
almost every line you've typed and it's just going
to end up with one of the those threads where I quote you 10
times and reply, and everyone will lose the will to live.
Sorry.
Cheers
Acer ventura
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