UKTC Archive

Re: Further Sheffield news; Police review.

Subject: Re: Further Sheffield news; Police review.
From: Bill Anderson
Date: Jul 02 2018 08:06:39
Yes I think you probably would Wayne... Why did you do that like that?
Because that's the way we've always done it.....
In fact there was someone on the news this morning singing the praises of
some Local Authorities who have adopted policies of allowing highway verges
and even central (highway) reservations to grow long grass and wild
flowers, in the cause of insect conservation. Here in Sheffield the local
press is full of people complaining that it looks untidy.....

On 1 July 2018 at 22:09, Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

Would I be amiss to state that (here in the US at least),
tradition/prejudice trumps logic every time? I know nothing except from
posts and the media--and that can be worse than nothing.

Wayne

On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 6:40 AM, Bill Anderson <
anderson.arb.original@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

Effort put into looking after them? Well yes but the vandalism, the
site-specific difficulties (streets aren't exactly un-hostile
environments
for trees) and then simple wear and tear are significant factors in urban
tree survival. So although I think the planting maintenance could be
better
it wouldn't give us 100%.

I wasn't trying to be glib questioning the survival rates; the last
paper I
saw on the life expectancy of street trees was between 19 and 28 years,
using those statistics, how many trees do you need to replace in 25
years?
Well; nearly all of them. No?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238003598_Street_
tree_survival_rates_Meta-analysis_of_previous_studies_
and_application_to_a_field_survey_in_Philadelphia_PA_USA

Community support up front Rod? I went to a couple of the meetings that
the
Council organised before this lot blew up; my impression of the public's
acceptance of the scheme was that they were largely in favour. And I'd
point out here that until this lot blew up I'd had way more queries about
getting trees removed than getting trees retained. I've got to admit here
that the Politician in charge did himself no favours by knowing
absolutely
nothing about trees, and the Officers present were either under orders to
keep quiet or wary of saying or doing the wrong thing. (Didn't you say
that
you and Rodney, when doing the RFS judging asked why the Officers were
reluctant to be a little more bold. Their reply was "political pressure"
IIRC. Incidentally, I've long pushed the local TOs to be a bit more
incisive.)

As for the Rivelin Valley Limes, I'd agree with Phillip. But I was
harangued by someone who was absolutely convinced of the importance of an
avenue of Common Limes through a woodland..... (Rivelin Valley's
woodlands
have also got their problems, under-managed, over-mature tree stock with
no
access for machinery... And yes I do mean "over-mature.")

And there's certainly some people involved with this protest whose
primary
concern is getting at the Council/Amey more than trees themselves.

And come to think of it didn't I read in your book that at one stage in
your career with FC that you were making policy up once you'd done
something rather than having a set plan before you started? I could argue
that the Sheffield strategy is not that different.

I can't say I like the way this situation has developed but I really
struggle to see how you might make these people understand the problems
the
trees and the Arbs face. That is without actually taking them out to work
on trees for half-a-dozen years..... And at the end of it all I believe
the
protestors to be a fairly small minority of the city's population.

Bill.



On 30 June 2018 at 17:11, "Rod Leslie" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
wrote:

Bill - I'm sure you're right, though I don't think we should get too
carried away with the social media effect - I remember a strong
response
to
just 2 trees removed for the Golden Hill Tesco in Bristol in the 90s.
And
what's a guy meant to do when he's stopped working ? Well, the simple
answer is don't get into that situation (though I'd stress it is highly
unlikely to be the guy up the tree's fault !) At least in this case we
have
the bill to demonstrate why you need to get community support up front.
The
idea that these trees really belong to the contracts department of a
County
Council (which is effectively what is being said here) is where it all
starts going wrong - that completely negates any idea of 'community' -
but
maybe that's the point - as maggie said, 'there's no such thing as
society'.

Its interesting to see it playing out elsewhere - watching network rail
from the train. They had a point over the tree issue, started out with
really, crass brutal scorched earth which no operating contractor
should
have accepted to undertake, got visibly better - clearly putting a bit
more
time into addressing their real problems, but thinking about the
impact -
but behaved crassly over nesting bird concerns and end up not being
able
to
work for at l;east 1/3rd of the year - again, how massive is that bill
?

Rod

-----Original Message----- From: elsteadbysea@xxxxxxxxxxx.com
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2018 3:28 PM
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Further Sheffield news; Police review.

Bill

The stats are whatever the effort you put into looking after them and
if
you do nothing in a dry summer, likely lose a high proportion.
Long time since I have been involved in planting trees on a large
scale.
I
remember back in 1976 when I was landscaping we lost 5% with a lot of
effort in watering.
We used to pout a steel tube on the end of a hose and push it through
the
tree pit, it worked.

I agree Mr and Mrs Miggins with a new tree outside could easily take
the
bath water to it.

If it cost SCC an additional 700k then they need to think it through as
the protests are not going to stop.
What is the point of saving roadside trees next to a woodland i.e.
Rivelin
valley.

Sounds like Amey are the winners all round!

Phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.
info>
On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
Sent: 30 June 2018 15:09
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Further Sheffield news; Police review.

Hi Phillip. What are the stats for newly planted street trees dying?
(Nationwide I mean) I imagine they're depressing. Even without the
unusually clement weather. Amey are currently trying to water what
they've
planted but I suspect the unusually dry spell will have beaten them. To
be
fair I think some of the protestors have started to realise that the
best
thing they can do for the cause of trees is to get out and water some
newly
planted ones. But it might be that some protestors think their cause is
better served by seeing new trees die

Rod; according to some reports in the press a couple of weeks ago
Sheffield aren't the biggest removers of trees (see
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5801627/Great-tree-
massacre-Councils-cut-110-000-trees-desperate-bid-save-money.html
Sorry for the daily mail link but it was the first one to come up from
a
quick google.) But it seems the Sheffield case has generated the most
protest It could be just that Sheffield's protestors got the social
media
going best (or worst depending how you look at it) I'm pretty well
convinced it wouldn't have got going at all had it not been for
book-face.


As to the Police involvement, I really don't know what else you're
supposed to do. Some of the protestors deliberately put themselves in
harm's way.
What's an innocent chap supposed to do when some ill-informed protestor
tries to stop him working? And apparently Sheffield Council have just
had
to pay Amey an extra £700k as a result of them being delayed..... Don't
suppose much of that £700k will find it's way to the tree management
side
of things.

Bill.

On 29 June 2018 at 18:59, "Rod Leslie" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
wrote:

As you say, what a surprise.

Obviously, noone asked the awkward question - as to whether the police
should have told Amey & the Council to go away and sort themselves out
before they would get seriously involved. Bluntly, if the police are
needed for anything beyond traffic control you as a tree worker have
got it wrong, and whatever the rights and wrongs of the arboriculture,
Amey, the Council and the SYP will be taught as an exemplar of just
how wrong you can get it for years to come.

Roderick Leslie

-----Original Message----- From: elsteadbysea@xxxxxxxxxxx.com
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 4:38 PM
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Further Sheffield news; Police review.


From what I saw in Sheffield last week the strength of feeling is
going to see the policing issues continue.
One observation is that replacement trees I saw are dying!

Phillip


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
Sent: 29 June 2018 15:43
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Further Sheffield news; Police review.

In case anyone's still interested:

http://www.southyorkshire-pcc.gov.uk/News-and-Events/News/20
18/June/Independent-Report-Makes-Recommendations-into-Polici
ng-of-Tree-Protests-in-Sheffield.aspx

The Police did nothing wrong it seems, and their response wasn't
unfair or disproportionate. Who'd have guessed?

Bill.



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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
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