UKTC Archive

RE: RE: Cavanagh appeal judgement

Subject: RE: RE: Cavanagh appeal judgement
From: oisink@xxxxxxxxxxx.com
Date: Nov 06 2018 07:45:19
I can see that 'joint and several' may not be the correct expression. But 
equally 'vests in' is not 'owned by'. 

I also still disagree. You seem to be saying that there is no circumstance 
where an HA can be found liable for harm caused by a neighbour's tree falling 
onto the highway. I am still not a lawyer, but what if the tree falls from 
neighbouring land of unknown ownership and the HA knew the tree posed an 
unacceptable risk, for example they inspected it, they tried to serve a 
notice but couldn’t find the owner?

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> 
On Behalf Of Julian Morris
Sent: 05 November 2018 22:36
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: RE: Cavanagh appeal judgement

s.263 of the 1980 Act "...every highway maintainable at the public expense, 
together with the materials and scrapings of it, vests in the authority who 
are for the time being the highway authority for the highway"

I see Mynors skirts around the issue of HA liability for private trees, but 
not in a desire to avoid the issue but because there is no apparent need to 
deal with it. His discussion of the House of Lords case Stovin v Wise leads 
on to a conclusion (p.202 of !st edition) that "...rather than waiting for 
the service of such a notice [s.154], owners should take action themselves to 
remove danger. If a tree does fall or shed a branch, and it is found that the 
cause was a defect that would have been apparent on reasonable inspection, it 
will not assist the owner to point to the failure of the authority to serve a 
notice." 

I rest his case. Not immunity, but since HA liability would first involve no 
liability by the owner, it's tantamount to immunity.

I don't think that joint responsibility comes into it, it would in any event 
be called 'contributory negligence' if a duty existed, which the courts and 
Mynors thinks doesn't. And several responsibility, the ability of someone to 
recover all losses from just one of either the owner or the HA, suggests a 
legal relationship between the HA and the owner, which cannot by any stretch 
of my imagination be construed from the Act. 

Julian A. Morris - Professional Tree Services jamtrees.co.uk  and  
highhedgesscotland.com
0778 XXX XXXX - 0141 XXX XXXX


Sent: Monday, November 05, 2018 at 6:45 PM
From: "oisink@xxxxxxxxxxx.com" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Cavanagh appeal judgement

Do HAs own all highways they maintain? I don't think so. Isn't it control, 
rather than ownership that matters in this instance?
I disagree, in that I think there is a duty. But I suspect what saves HAs 
from being sued in many instances is the lower standard of care expected of 
them for trees not in their control. But that does not make them immune.

<<What a repugnant, dangerous and unthinkable lacuna in the law it would be 
for a tree owner to think that he need do nothing and only wait for the HA 
to inspect his tree and tell him what he must do.>> That is really not what 
I have said or suggested. Joint and several responsibility is a common 
situation. But hey ho. 

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Julian Morris
Sent: 05 November 2018 18:26
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Cavanagh appeal judgement

The important point I think is ownership. The highway vests in the highways 
authority, regardless of who holds title to the land beneath it. I think it 
is right that the duty to keep it in good shape is with its owner, namely 
the highways authority. But it is a very different thing for the HA to be 
repsonsible for someone else's property and negligence. For, is it not 
clearly the case that all other things being equal the responsibility for 
harm or damage lies with the tree owner? What a repugnant, dangerous and 
unthinkable lacuna in the law it would be for a tree owner to think that he 
need do nothing and only wait for the HA to inspect his tree and tell him 
what he must do.

Before a case can turn on the facts, there must be a principle of legal 
duty and neglect of it. If what you are suggesting is true, surely there 
would be guidance somewhere, anywhere, that HAs should systematically 
inspect trees on private land neighbouring the highway. Step ladders and X 
ray specs would be issued.

In context, I don't think the Parish Council would have got very far with 
that defense.

As ever, if anyone wants to put me right please do. It's a dreadful 
prospect in any walk of life to be responsible for the negligence of others 
with no right of inspection and no mechanism of apportionment. I think that 
some responsibility like that would be explicit in statute, not obliquely 
inferrable (if that's even a word). 

Julian A. Morris - Professional Tree Services jamtrees.co.uk  and  
highhedgesscotland.com
0778 XXX XXXX - 0141 XXX XXXX


Sent: Monday, November 05, 2018 at 5:45 PM
From: "oisink@xxxxxxxxxxx.com" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cavanagh appeal judgement

I think the duty derives from section 41: duty to maintain highways 
maintainable at public expense. I do not agree is it only reactive: a 
danger is a risk and taking action to avoid harm is preventative. For 
instance, in respect of trips and slips it is my experience of several 
cases that a failure to inspect periodically, at suitable intervals, is 
considered negligent (whether or not that is causative is of course 
another matter). That is not to say HAs are liable if a tree falls from 
neighbouring land and causes harm. That would turn on the facts of that 
case, which are likely to cover whether the HA could reasonably have 
foreseen, particularly given the degree of their control over the land 
etc. 

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Julian Morris
Sent: 05 November 2018 17:22
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cavanagh appeal judgement

Yes there is a duty to assert the public's right to use the road (or 
words to that effect) but it is more reactive (clearing obstructions). No 
matter how I read it, it is less than a duty to ensure safety by actively 
looking for and assessing risks. Notice can be served on 3rd parties 
where 'it appears to the [highways authority]' that there is a danger. 
That sounds reactive.

I'm happy to be corrected by anyone who knows of te secret section in the 
Act that imposes a duty of care in respect of off-highway trees. I'm 
pretty sure there's been all sorts of case law where it was found that 
Councils don't have tu guarantee the roads, never mind the safety of 3rd 
party trees.

Julian A. Morris - Professional Tree Services jamtrees.co.uk  and 
highhedgesscotland.com
0778 XXX XXXX - 0141 XXX XXXX


Sent: Monday, November 05, 2018 at 5:00 PM
From: "oisink@xxxxxxxxxxx.com" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: RE: Cavanagh appeal judgement

I haven't checked but isn't the duty to keep an unobstructed highway?

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Julian Morris
Sent: 05 November 2018 15:53
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: RE: Cavanagh appeal judgement

The legislation says 'may, serve notice, not 'must'. It's questionable 
whether it's a 'duty'.

Julian A. Morris - Professional Tree Services jamtrees.co.uk  and 
highhedgesscotland.com
0778 XXX XXXX - 0141 XXX XXXX


Sent: Monday, November 05, 2018 at 12:27 PM
From: "Alastair Durkin" <ADurkin@xxxxxxxxxx.gov.uk>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Cavanagh appeal judgement

Hi Phillip, I'm pretty sure it's 2016 as I described 
http://www.ukroadsliaisongroup.org/en/codes/ . The 2016 document 
supersedes three previous codes: 'Well-maintained Highways', 
'Well-lit Highways' and 'Management of Highway Structures'.

On your question, I think that’s probably right, yes. The owner has 
their duty of care, but if the Authority see a tree from their own 
land growing on third party land (they are not expected to enter 
private property) that is obviously unsafe then they are duty bound 
to serve notice on the owner and if necessary make the tree safe and 
charge it back to the owner. That’s my understanding anyway. 

Alastair

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Philip 
Wilson
Sent: 05 November 2018 12:07
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Cavanagh appeal judgement

Alistair,

I believe that the extant edition is 2014, and that the change in 
guidance was from 2013 to 2014.

file:///C:/Users/Philip/AppData/Local/Packages/Microsoft.Microso
ft
Ed
ge
_8wekyb3d8bbwe/TempState/Downloads/original_version_well_maintai
ne
d_
hi
ghways_85645%20(1).pdf

On a slightly different matter you might be able to comment on 
Section 9.6.1 of the guidance:
'In England and Wales the highway authority is also responsible for 
ensuring that trees outside the highway boundary, but within falling 
distance, are safe.'
This seems to suggest that, for such trees, the duty of care is 
shared with the neighbouring landowner. Can that possibly be correct? 
The highway authority often cuts back overhanging branches, of 
course, but the guidance says 'safe'! 

Philip



-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Alastair 
Durkin
Sent: 05 November 2018 11:08
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Cavanagh appeal judgement

Back to this - On the weekend I listened to Jeremy's 2012 ISA 
conference talk on the ISA podcast. A good listen by all accounts as 
one might expect. Within Jeremy's talk he refers to the COP for Well 
Managed Highways and the stipulation of a 5 yearly inspection of 
highway trees being a useful reference. Now when I looked it up I 
soon realised that the COP was updated in 2016 and any reference to 5 
yearly inspections of highway trees has been removed. So the COP has 
basically washed its hands of offering any advice on this important 
point to Highway Authorities. What a cop out!

Alastair



-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Julian 
Morris
Sent: 25 October 2018 09:45
To: UK Tree Care
Cc: UK Tree Care
Subject: Cavanagh appeal judgement

Availabel for download

https://www.barrelltreecare.co.uk/resources/useful-documents/

Julian A. Morris - Professional Tree Services jamtrees.co.uk  
and highhedgesscotland.com
0778 XXX XXXX - 0141 XXX XXXX




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