UKTC Archive

RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree needs and effects

Subject: RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree needs and effects
From: Alastair Durkin
Date: Oct 10 2019 08:17:38
Looks to me from the weathering that the union failed some time ago and was 
just waiting to go. In fact I bet you would have seen it opening and closing 
in the wind with the amount of exposed weathered wood on display. Don't think 
bracing would have helped in that scenario. Tree should have been removed 
yonks ago.


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> 
On Behalf Of Brewster, Ian
Sent: 10 October 2019 08:03
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree 
needs and effects

Appears from the picture to be a failed included union if inspected 
previously might have identified the defect with a recommendation to brace  
or height reduce.
The house being static so would fall within a high risk zone i.e. and area 
requiring frequent inspect particularly of trees within a falling distance of 
the property. That's a lucky escape!


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
Date: 10/10/2019 04:07 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree 
needs and effects

Here's an example I'd appreciate y'all's opinion on. Is anything visible
that might be construed as evidence that a timely assessment might have
alerted these folks to the possibility of a failure?

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/Elderly-Couple-Very-Lucky-to-Escape-Injury-After-Tree-Falls-on-House-in-Auburn-Mass--562443641.html<https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/Elderly-Couple-Very-Lucky-to-Escape-Injury-After-Tree-Falls-on-House-in-Auburn-Mass--562443641.html>

Wayne

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 3:14 PM Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

Here's a case that just popped up; the article contains some unattributed
advice.


https://www.seattlepi.com/local/komo/article/Mom-feeding-baby-narrowly-escapes-tree-crashing-14500628.php<https://www.seattlepi.com/local/komo/article/Mom-feeding-baby-narrowly-escapes-tree-crashing-14500628.php>

All comments welcome.

Wayne

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:05 PM Jim Quaife <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

Er ... the perils of replying in a rush.
Thank you Philip - a schoolboy error on my part!
The missing word is of course "no".
I will now crawl back down into my cave!
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Philip van Wassenaer
Sent: 09 October 2019 19:20
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree needs and effects

I sure like it, but I am not sure you can assume everyone on this forum
agrees.



Jim, could you please review this statement and see if you missed one
word?:



“May I make it absolutely clear that I do make any criticism of the
coroner

at all.”



Thanks,





Philip van Wassenaer, B.SC<http://B.SC>., MFC

Principal Consultant

Urban Forest Innovations Inc.

Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

<http://www.urbanforestinnovations.com/<http://www.urbanforestinnovations.com/>>
 www.urbanforestinnovations.com<http://www.urbanforestinnovations.com>





-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: October-09-19 1:00 PM
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree needs and effects



Re: Jim Quaife's reply of October 4, 2019



Would I be correct in assuming that Jim's reply sums up the universal

position of the tree management profession(s) on this collective/forum?



Wayne



On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 12:23 AM Jim Quaife <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>

wrote:



The difficulty is that tree failures of any significance are not only

rare, but largely unpredictable. We may see a "dodgy" branch
overhanging a

road and feel that we have done our job by requiring it to be removed
(as

we have), but we have absolutely no basis upon which to assess whether
an

incident has been prevented.

As I have said before, we have no statistically significant data upon

which to assess tree risk. In the professional field of statistics,
being

significant is not primarily a matter of the sample size (which with
tree

risk is microscopic) although that is a factor, it means that the
results

can discount randomness. Whichever way one looks at it, tree failures
are

random, and incidents caused by tree failure are also random.

There is no easy answer because the primary drive for tree risk
assessment

is from insurers. The coroner in the Wirral case had no advice provided

about tree risk and although the recommendation for the authority to

smarten up its act was correct, the stated purpose was to "prevent"
another

such incident. There is no tree risk assessment - in the world - that
can

prevent tree failures. Tree risk might be reduced, although we have

absolutely no idea as to the effectiveness, but other than clear-felling

tree failures are a fact of nature, and aggravated by the treatment we

expose urban trees to as Ian describes.

May I make it absolutely clear that I do make any criticism of the
coroner

at all. I'm not sure I understand tree risk as comprehensively as I
should

- and I'm supposed to know!

Despite being unable to gauge their efficacy, tree risk assessments are

necessary as the alternative is utter indifference. I like to think
that

we have saved some damage, injury and death over the years, but that is

merely intuitive.

Jim





-----Original Message-----

From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:

uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson

Sent: 03 October 2019 22:02

To: UK Tree Care

Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street

tree needs and effects



Thanks for the excellent summary; unfortunately it appears that the UK
is

plagued with some of the same threats to trees that are common in the
US.

Trees need advocates, but so do victims of tree failures--as I said,
trees

don't fail unless the, shall we say, the stress:resistance ratio comes
into

balance. That, plus one "silly millimeter" of additional force is added
by

one last insult to tree integrity, is all it takes to come to the last

straw, and the camel or tree is lost, taking other things with it.



There can be no question that predicting *when* a tree is going to fall
is

functionally impossible, but even though some indicators of an
unarrested

trend toward further instability may be difficult to assess, that should

not license the ignoring of obvious indicators/factors that add up to
that

trend. If, shall we say, that proactive measures were taken to intercept

such trees or branches before they kill some one or smash motorcars,
etc.,

the precautionary principle should not be said to be taken to extremes.
*In

such cases only*, if trees exhibiting clear evidence that such trends

exist, taking them down before they drop (branches or entire trees)
before

the trend becomes so advanced that the tree reaches a point where it is

dangerous to work on/in, it should at least qualify as a "mercy killing"

and reduce or eliminate tree hazard potential. After all, the tree so

assessed is going to die anyway, so "putting it out of its misery" and

preventing the loss of whatever it happens to collide with simply make

ultimate good sense.



However, *denial is on the increase*, at least here in the USA (where it

has reached absurd levels from top to bottom), meaning that it becomes
an

issue of sense or sentiment in the political realm. Decision-making in
the

face of senseless opposition takes courage.



Wayne



On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:47 AM Brewster, Ian <
Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>

wrote:



It’s a case of tree fitting in with the street scene not the other way

round as otherwise there would be very few good urban trees.

Once back in the Victorian days and earlier there were no hard
surfaces,

just mud tracks, then came gas, electric, cables, standard highway

builds,

high sided vehicles, all contributing to the gradual shrinkage of a

trees’

potential crown and root expanse.

So subsequently those large trees and future plantings were shaped,

hybridised (Streetwise!) and pushed into holes thinking that their
roots

would inevitably find their own pocket of gold…often wrapping around a

solid pipe to extract condensation or under a paved surface trying to

grip

onto something solid to hold itself up during those high winds. So
pipes

get fractured, repairs carried out hacking through roots by non arbs,

roots

get shaved and tarmac re-levelled and laid by highways engineers, by
non

arbs, etc. etc. So we introduce more utilities, some statutory like
water

and telecommunications, and the tree has to put up or be removed. Any

poor

arborist trying to keep on the top of all this adverse pressure by

providing alternatives/routes and then having to deal with concerns
from

residents expectation for more light, garage/driveway cracks, wanting

more

light, less leaf fall and bird sh*t is one special person imo. Ever
tried

finding an actual intact RPA in the highway is a rarity so that’s why

Highway trees have a reduce shelf life having to contend with other

needs.

Will the root hacking, branch cutting ever cease, doubt it. But those

utility and highways engineers need to be aware of the consequences
as a

result of their actions.

What ever happened to the most excellent NJUG?



From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <

uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>

On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson

Sent: 03 October 2019 19:19

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>

Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street

tree needs and effects



Ok, but how about other tree professionals?



Remember, I'm from the USA, so don't know anything about UK laws, etc.



I look at tree condition solely from the standpoint of the tree. My
study

has revealed that nearly all street and highway tree failures occur

because

of some form of interference to the tree's normal development--to put
it

politely. Here in the USA, I am beginning to suspect that too much is

taken

for granted with (dis?)respect to trees. Root damage, including
"pruning"

does not improve tree condition and is unjustifiable. Crown pruning

practices such as "lacing" and "top-hatting" seem to be expedients

practiced by those with limited knowledge of tree biology. Any pruning

that

unbalances the crown is similarly suspect. Highway construction tends
to

damage the root systems of adjacent trees, and and street tree
planting

also interferes with normal root system development. Needless to say,

trenching, even at some distance from the tree reduces the amount of

resistance to toppling, even though severed roots are relatively
small.

Large roots on most species do not "grow back." I could go on, but you

get

my drift. I am interested in how other countries approach trees and
their

management and prevention of damage, injury, and death due to tree

failures.



Tree failures or often blamed on God or Nature in the USA, or are
written

off as "freak accidents." Bs.



My recommendations will have the effect of increasing work/business
for

tree professionals, not reducing it. But it also will increase the
level

of

competence. Any yahoo with a chain saw should not be able to pass

themselves off as any sort of tree professional, so the incompetent
and

others who are certain they know everything may be concerned about the

exposure of their "new clothes" as being at least transparent if not

nonexistent. Of course those on this list are, by definition,
presumed to

be exceptions--their participation in this forum is a sign of
intelligent

enquiry, not arrogance (with, perhaps, occasional exceptions).



Wayne



On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:36 AM Brewster, Ian <
Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk

<mailto:Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>>

wrote:



I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway

but

doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this public

forum.

.





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway

but

doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this public

forum.

.





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.





-------- Original message --------

From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>

Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:

uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>

Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree

needs and effects



I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible

regarding

how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas

where

failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root

development

and/or root system damage caused by the construction of improvements

that

affect tree health and related risk.



I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned with

laws,

rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, preferably

scientific, evidence.



I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree health
and

failures.



Thanks in advance to all respondents.



Wayne







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>><

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>>

NPS

-------- Original message --------

From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>

Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:

uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>

Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree

needs and effects



I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible

regarding

how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas

where

failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root

development

and/or root system damage caused by the construction of improvements

that

affect tree health and related risk.



I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned with

laws,

rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, preferably

scientific, evidence.



I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree health
and

failures.



Thanks in advance to all respondents.



Wayne







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>><

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>>







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>









--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>

It’s a case of tree fitting in with the street scene not the other way

round as otherwise there would be very few good urban trees.

Once back in the Victorian days and earlier there were no hard
surfaces,

just mud tracks, then came gas, electric, cables, standard highway

builds,

high sided vehicles, all contributing to the gradual shrinkage of a

trees’

potential crown and root expanse.

So subsequently those large trees and future plantings were shaped,

hybridised (Streetwise!) and pushed into holes thinking that their
roots

would inevitably find their own pocket of gold…often wrapping around a

solid pipe to extract condensation or under a paved surface trying to

grip

onto something solid to hold itself up during those high winds. So
pipes

get fractured, repairs carried out hacking through roots by non arbs,

roots

get shaved and tarmac re-levelled and laid by highways engineers, by
non

arbs, etc. etc. So we introduce more utilities, some statutory like
water

and telecommunications, and the tree has to put up or be removed. Any

poor

arborist trying to keep on the top of all this adverse pressure by

providing alternatives/routes and then having to deal with concerns
from

residents expectation for more light, garage/driveway cracks, wanting

more

light, less leaf fall and bird sh*t is one special person imo. Ever
tried

finding an actual intact RPA in the highway is a rarity so that’s why

Highway trees have a reduce shelf life having to contend with other

needs.

Will the root hacking, branch cutting ever cease, doubt it. But those

utility and highways engineers need to be aware of the consequences
as a

result of their actions.

What ever happened to the most excellent NJUG?



From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <

uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>

On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson

Sent: 03 October 2019 19:19

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>

Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street

tree needs and effects



Ok, but how about other tree professionals?



Remember, I'm from the USA, so don't know anything about UK laws, etc.



I look at tree condition solely from the standpoint of the tree. My
study

has revealed that nearly all street and highway tree failures occur

because

of some form of interference to the tree's normal development--to put
it

politely. Here in the USA, I am beginning to suspect that too much is

taken

for granted with (dis?)respect to trees. Root damage, including
"pruning"

does not improve tree condition and is unjustifiable. Crown pruning

practices such as "lacing" and "top-hatting" seem to be expedients

practiced by those with limited knowledge of tree biology. Any pruning

that

unbalances the crown is similarly suspect. Highway construction tends
to

damage the root systems of adjacent trees, and and street tree
planting

also interferes with normal root system development. Needless to say,

trenching, even at some distance from the tree reduces the amount of

resistance to toppling, even though severed roots are relatively
small.

Large roots on most species do not "grow back." I could go on, but you

get

my drift. I am interested in how other countries approach trees and
their

management and prevention of damage, injury, and death due to tree

failures.



Tree failures or often blamed on God or Nature in the USA, or are
written

off as "freak accidents." Bs.



My recommendations will have the effect of increasing work/business
for

tree professionals, not reducing it. But it also will increase the
level

of

competence. Any yahoo with a chain saw should not be able to pass

themselves off as any sort of tree professional, so the incompetent
and

others who are certain they know everything may be concerned about the

exposure of their "new clothes" as being at least transparent if not

nonexistent. Of course those on this list are, by definition,
presumed to

be exceptions--their participation in this forum is a sign of
intelligent

enquiry, not arrogance (with, perhaps, occasional exceptions).



Wayne



On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:36 AM Brewster, Ian <
Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk

<mailto:Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>>

wrote:



I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway

but

doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this public

forum.

.





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway

but

doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this public

forum.

.





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.





-------- Original message --------

From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>

Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:

uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>

Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree

needs and effects



I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible

regarding

how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas

where

failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root

development

and/or root system damage caused by the construction of improvements

that

affect tree health and related risk.



I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned with

laws,

rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, preferably

scientific, evidence.



I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree health
and

failures.



Thanks in advance to all respondents.



Wayne







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>><

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>>

NPS

-------- Original message --------

From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>

Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:

uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>

Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree

needs and effects



I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible

regarding

how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas

where

failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root

development

and/or root system damage caused by the construction of improvements

that

affect tree health and related risk.



I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned with

laws,

rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, preferably

scientific, evidence.



I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree health
and

failures.



Thanks in advance to all respondents.



Wayne







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>><

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>>







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>









--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>

NPS









--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>









--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>









--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>




--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>



--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>





--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>
Appears from the picture to be a failed included union if inspected 
previously might have identified the defect with a recommendation to brace  
or height reduce.
The house being static so would fall within a high risk zone i.e. and area 
requiring frequent inspect particularly of trees within a falling distance of 
the property. That's a lucky escape!


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
Date: 10/10/2019 04:07 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree 
needs and effects

Here's an example I'd appreciate y'all's opinion on. Is anything visible
that might be construed as evidence that a timely assessment might have
alerted these folks to the possibility of a failure?

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/Elderly-Couple-Very-Lucky-to-Escape-Injury-After-Tree-Falls-on-House-in-Auburn-Mass--562443641.html<https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/Elderly-Couple-Very-Lucky-to-Escape-Injury-After-Tree-Falls-on-House-in-Auburn-Mass--562443641.html>

Wayne

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 3:14 PM Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

Here's a case that just popped up; the article contains some unattributed
advice.


https://www.seattlepi.com/local/komo/article/Mom-feeding-baby-narrowly-escapes-tree-crashing-14500628.php<https://www.seattlepi.com/local/komo/article/Mom-feeding-baby-narrowly-escapes-tree-crashing-14500628.php>

All comments welcome.

Wayne

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:05 PM Jim Quaife <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

Er ... the perils of replying in a rush.
Thank you Philip - a schoolboy error on my part!
The missing word is of course "no".
I will now crawl back down into my cave!
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Philip van Wassenaer
Sent: 09 October 2019 19:20
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree needs and effects

I sure like it, but I am not sure you can assume everyone on this forum
agrees.



Jim, could you please review this statement and see if you missed one
word?:



“May I make it absolutely clear that I do make any criticism of the
coroner

at all.”



Thanks,





Philip van Wassenaer, B.SC<http://B.SC>., MFC

Principal Consultant

Urban Forest Innovations Inc.

Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

<http://www.urbanforestinnovations.com/<http://www.urbanforestinnovations.com/>>
 www.urbanforestinnovations.com<http://www.urbanforestinnovations.com>





-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: October-09-19 1:00 PM
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree needs and effects



Re: Jim Quaife's reply of October 4, 2019



Would I be correct in assuming that Jim's reply sums up the universal

position of the tree management profession(s) on this collective/forum?



Wayne



On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 12:23 AM Jim Quaife <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>

wrote:



The difficulty is that tree failures of any significance are not only

rare, but largely unpredictable. We may see a "dodgy" branch
overhanging a

road and feel that we have done our job by requiring it to be removed
(as

we have), but we have absolutely no basis upon which to assess whether
an

incident has been prevented.

As I have said before, we have no statistically significant data upon

which to assess tree risk. In the professional field of statistics,
being

significant is not primarily a matter of the sample size (which with
tree

risk is microscopic) although that is a factor, it means that the
results

can discount randomness. Whichever way one looks at it, tree failures
are

random, and incidents caused by tree failure are also random.

There is no easy answer because the primary drive for tree risk
assessment

is from insurers. The coroner in the Wirral case had no advice provided

about tree risk and although the recommendation for the authority to

smarten up its act was correct, the stated purpose was to "prevent"
another

such incident. There is no tree risk assessment - in the world - that
can

prevent tree failures. Tree risk might be reduced, although we have

absolutely no idea as to the effectiveness, but other than clear-felling

tree failures are a fact of nature, and aggravated by the treatment we

expose urban trees to as Ian describes.

May I make it absolutely clear that I do make any criticism of the
coroner

at all. I'm not sure I understand tree risk as comprehensively as I
should

- and I'm supposed to know!

Despite being unable to gauge their efficacy, tree risk assessments are

necessary as the alternative is utter indifference. I like to think
that

we have saved some damage, injury and death over the years, but that is

merely intuitive.

Jim





-----Original Message-----

From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:

uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson

Sent: 03 October 2019 22:02

To: UK Tree Care

Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street

tree needs and effects



Thanks for the excellent summary; unfortunately it appears that the UK
is

plagued with some of the same threats to trees that are common in the
US.

Trees need advocates, but so do victims of tree failures--as I said,
trees

don't fail unless the, shall we say, the stress:resistance ratio comes
into

balance. That, plus one "silly millimeter" of additional force is added
by

one last insult to tree integrity, is all it takes to come to the last

straw, and the camel or tree is lost, taking other things with it.



There can be no question that predicting *when* a tree is going to fall
is

functionally impossible, but even though some indicators of an
unarrested

trend toward further instability may be difficult to assess, that should

not license the ignoring of obvious indicators/factors that add up to
that

trend. If, shall we say, that proactive measures were taken to intercept

such trees or branches before they kill some one or smash motorcars,
etc.,

the precautionary principle should not be said to be taken to extremes.
*In

such cases only*, if trees exhibiting clear evidence that such trends

exist, taking them down before they drop (branches or entire trees)
before

the trend becomes so advanced that the tree reaches a point where it is

dangerous to work on/in, it should at least qualify as a "mercy killing"

and reduce or eliminate tree hazard potential. After all, the tree so

assessed is going to die anyway, so "putting it out of its misery" and

preventing the loss of whatever it happens to collide with simply make

ultimate good sense.



However, *denial is on the increase*, at least here in the USA (where it

has reached absurd levels from top to bottom), meaning that it becomes
an

issue of sense or sentiment in the political realm. Decision-making in
the

face of senseless opposition takes courage.



Wayne



On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:47 AM Brewster, Ian <
Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>

wrote:



It’s a case of tree fitting in with the street scene not the other way

round as otherwise there would be very few good urban trees.

Once back in the Victorian days and earlier there were no hard
surfaces,

just mud tracks, then came gas, electric, cables, standard highway

builds,

high sided vehicles, all contributing to the gradual shrinkage of a

trees’

potential crown and root expanse.

So subsequently those large trees and future plantings were shaped,

hybridised (Streetwise!) and pushed into holes thinking that their
roots

would inevitably find their own pocket of gold…often wrapping around a

solid pipe to extract condensation or under a paved surface trying to

grip

onto something solid to hold itself up during those high winds. So
pipes

get fractured, repairs carried out hacking through roots by non arbs,

roots

get shaved and tarmac re-levelled and laid by highways engineers, by
non

arbs, etc. etc. So we introduce more utilities, some statutory like
water

and telecommunications, and the tree has to put up or be removed. Any

poor

arborist trying to keep on the top of all this adverse pressure by

providing alternatives/routes and then having to deal with concerns
from

residents expectation for more light, garage/driveway cracks, wanting

more

light, less leaf fall and bird sh*t is one special person imo. Ever
tried

finding an actual intact RPA in the highway is a rarity so that’s why

Highway trees have a reduce shelf life having to contend with other

needs.

Will the root hacking, branch cutting ever cease, doubt it. But those

utility and highways engineers need to be aware of the consequences
as a

result of their actions.

What ever happened to the most excellent NJUG?



From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <

uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>

On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson

Sent: 03 October 2019 19:19

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>

Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street

tree needs and effects



Ok, but how about other tree professionals?



Remember, I'm from the USA, so don't know anything about UK laws, etc.



I look at tree condition solely from the standpoint of the tree. My
study

has revealed that nearly all street and highway tree failures occur

because

of some form of interference to the tree's normal development--to put
it

politely. Here in the USA, I am beginning to suspect that too much is

taken

for granted with (dis?)respect to trees. Root damage, including
"pruning"

does not improve tree condition and is unjustifiable. Crown pruning

practices such as "lacing" and "top-hatting" seem to be expedients

practiced by those with limited knowledge of tree biology. Any pruning

that

unbalances the crown is similarly suspect. Highway construction tends
to

damage the root systems of adjacent trees, and and street tree
planting

also interferes with normal root system development. Needless to say,

trenching, even at some distance from the tree reduces the amount of

resistance to toppling, even though severed roots are relatively
small.

Large roots on most species do not "grow back." I could go on, but you

get

my drift. I am interested in how other countries approach trees and
their

management and prevention of damage, injury, and death due to tree

failures.



Tree failures or often blamed on God or Nature in the USA, or are
written

off as "freak accidents." Bs.



My recommendations will have the effect of increasing work/business
for

tree professionals, not reducing it. But it also will increase the
level

of

competence. Any yahoo with a chain saw should not be able to pass

themselves off as any sort of tree professional, so the incompetent
and

others who are certain they know everything may be concerned about the

exposure of their "new clothes" as being at least transparent if not

nonexistent. Of course those on this list are, by definition,
presumed to

be exceptions--their participation in this forum is a sign of
intelligent

enquiry, not arrogance (with, perhaps, occasional exceptions).



Wayne



On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:36 AM Brewster, Ian <
Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk

<mailto:Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>>

wrote:



I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway

but

doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this public

forum.

.





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway

but

doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this public

forum.

.





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.





-------- Original message --------

From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>

Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:

uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>

Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree

needs and effects



I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible

regarding

how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas

where

failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root

development

and/or root system damage caused by the construction of improvements

that

affect tree health and related risk.



I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned with

laws,

rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, preferably

scientific, evidence.



I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree health
and

failures.



Thanks in advance to all respondents.



Wayne







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>><

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>>

NPS

-------- Original message --------

From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>

Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:

uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>

Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree

needs and effects



I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible

regarding

how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas

where

failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root

development

and/or root system damage caused by the construction of improvements

that

affect tree health and related risk.



I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned with

laws,

rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, preferably

scientific, evidence.



I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree health
and

failures.



Thanks in advance to all respondents.



Wayne







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>><

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>>







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>









--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>

It’s a case of tree fitting in with the street scene not the other way

round as otherwise there would be very few good urban trees.

Once back in the Victorian days and earlier there were no hard
surfaces,

just mud tracks, then came gas, electric, cables, standard highway

builds,

high sided vehicles, all contributing to the gradual shrinkage of a

trees’

potential crown and root expanse.

So subsequently those large trees and future plantings were shaped,

hybridised (Streetwise!) and pushed into holes thinking that their
roots

would inevitably find their own pocket of gold…often wrapping around a

solid pipe to extract condensation or under a paved surface trying to

grip

onto something solid to hold itself up during those high winds. So
pipes

get fractured, repairs carried out hacking through roots by non arbs,

roots

get shaved and tarmac re-levelled and laid by highways engineers, by
non

arbs, etc. etc. So we introduce more utilities, some statutory like
water

and telecommunications, and the tree has to put up or be removed. Any

poor

arborist trying to keep on the top of all this adverse pressure by

providing alternatives/routes and then having to deal with concerns
from

residents expectation for more light, garage/driveway cracks, wanting

more

light, less leaf fall and bird sh*t is one special person imo. Ever
tried

finding an actual intact RPA in the highway is a rarity so that’s why

Highway trees have a reduce shelf life having to contend with other

needs.

Will the root hacking, branch cutting ever cease, doubt it. But those

utility and highways engineers need to be aware of the consequences
as a

result of their actions.

What ever happened to the most excellent NJUG?



From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <

uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>

On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson

Sent: 03 October 2019 19:19

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>

Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street

tree needs and effects



Ok, but how about other tree professionals?



Remember, I'm from the USA, so don't know anything about UK laws, etc.



I look at tree condition solely from the standpoint of the tree. My
study

has revealed that nearly all street and highway tree failures occur

because

of some form of interference to the tree's normal development--to put
it

politely. Here in the USA, I am beginning to suspect that too much is

taken

for granted with (dis?)respect to trees. Root damage, including
"pruning"

does not improve tree condition and is unjustifiable. Crown pruning

practices such as "lacing" and "top-hatting" seem to be expedients

practiced by those with limited knowledge of tree biology. Any pruning

that

unbalances the crown is similarly suspect. Highway construction tends
to

damage the root systems of adjacent trees, and and street tree
planting

also interferes with normal root system development. Needless to say,

trenching, even at some distance from the tree reduces the amount of

resistance to toppling, even though severed roots are relatively
small.

Large roots on most species do not "grow back." I could go on, but you

get

my drift. I am interested in how other countries approach trees and
their

management and prevention of damage, injury, and death due to tree

failures.



Tree failures or often blamed on God or Nature in the USA, or are
written

off as "freak accidents." Bs.



My recommendations will have the effect of increasing work/business
for

tree professionals, not reducing it. But it also will increase the
level

of

competence. Any yahoo with a chain saw should not be able to pass

themselves off as any sort of tree professional, so the incompetent
and

others who are certain they know everything may be concerned about the

exposure of their "new clothes" as being at least transparent if not

nonexistent. Of course those on this list are, by definition,
presumed to

be exceptions--their participation in this forum is a sign of
intelligent

enquiry, not arrogance (with, perhaps, occasional exceptions).



Wayne



On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:36 AM Brewster, Ian <
Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk

<mailto:Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>>

wrote:



I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway

but

doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this public

forum.

.





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway

but

doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this public

forum.

.





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.





-------- Original message --------

From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>

Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:

uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>

Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree

needs and effects



I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible

regarding

how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas

where

failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root

development

and/or root system damage caused by the construction of improvements

that

affect tree health and related risk.



I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned with

laws,

rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, preferably

scientific, evidence.



I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree health
and

failures.



Thanks in advance to all respondents.



Wayne







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>><

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>>

NPS

-------- Original message --------

From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>

Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)

To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:

uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>

Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree

needs and effects



I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible

regarding

how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas

where

failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root

development

and/or root system damage caused by the construction of improvements

that

affect tree health and related risk.



I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned with

laws,

rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, preferably

scientific, evidence.



I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree health
and

failures.



Thanks in advance to all respondents.



Wayne







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>><

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>>







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>









--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>

NPS









--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>









--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>







--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>









--

The UK Tree Care mailing list

To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info



The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy

http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>




--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>



--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>





--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>
NPS
 



-- 
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/



-- 
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/