UKTC Archive

RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree needs and effects

Subject: RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree needs and effects
From: Liam McKarry
Date: Oct 10 2019 09:08:36
Its one of the greatest failings of the Arboricultural profession. We don't 
record each and every failure, whether it's a near miss or something that 
causes actual damage to persons or property as a result we have no 
statistical data to base decisions.

Wouldn't it be great if each time a tree fails or loses a branch (or 
whatever) that the information is recorded into a national database so that 
eventually there could be analysis of what happens, where it happens and how 
often it happens thereby allowing a much greater degree of risk analysis to 
be done.

Regards

Liam McKarry
Arboricultural Officer (Planning)
Colchester Borough Council
Rowan House
33 Sheepen Road
Colchester
CO3 3WG
01206 XXXXXX

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> 
On Behalf Of Julian Morris
Sent: 10 October 2019 09:50
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree 
needs and effects

I disagree strongly with Jim's take on this. Tree failures are not random. 
Nothing is random in nature, save perhaps the timing of spontaneous 
degradation of individual radioactive elements.

We might not have the information to predict when part of a tree will fail, 
partly because we haven't a full understanding of the physiology and 
biomechanics of trees, partly because we haven't the ability to predict 
microclimatic conditions around the tree and partly because we cannot see 
inside the tree and the soil around it, nut it's sure as heck not random. It 
may seem quasi-random, but an experienced professional should be able to 
narrow it down a good deal.

After all, were it truly random there would be no such thing as reasonable 
foreseability, and thus no basis for duty of care.

At odds with the statement "tree risk assessments are necessary as the 
alternative is utter indifference" I'd say they are necessary as a defence 
against liability in negligence. Most clients require them not to save lives 
but to save liability.

There, it's more interesting if someone gives a reasoned disagreement. I 
wouldn't want you thinking that Jim had it in an nutshell.

Julian A. Morris - Professional Tree Services jamtrees.co.uk  and  
highhedgesscotland.com
0778 XXX XXXX - 0141 XXX XXXX

be
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 at 5:59 PM
From: "Wayne Tyson" <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree needs and effects

Re: Jim Quaife's reply of October 4, 2019

Would I be correct in assuming that Jim's reply sums up the universal
position of the tree management profession(s) on this collective/forum?

Wayne

On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 12:23 AM Jim Quaife <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

The difficulty is that tree failures of any significance are not
only rare, but largely unpredictable.  We may see a "dodgy" branch
overhanging a road and feel that we have done our job by requiring
it to be removed (as we have), but we have absolutely no basis upon
which to assess whether an incident has been prevented.
As I have said before, we have no statistically significant data
upon which to assess tree risk.  In the professional field of
statistics, being significant is not primarily a matter of the
sample size (which with tree risk is microscopic) although that is a
factor, it means that the results can discount randomness.
Whichever way one looks at it, tree failures are random, and incidents 
caused by tree failure are also random.
There is no easy answer because the primary drive for tree risk
assessment is from insurers.  The coroner in the Wirral case had no
advice provided about tree risk and although the recommendation for
the authority to smarten up its act was correct, the stated purpose
was to "prevent" another such incident.  There is no tree risk
assessment - in the world - that can prevent tree failures.  Tree
risk might be reduced, although we have absolutely no idea as to the
effectiveness, but other than clear-felling tree failures are a fact
of nature, and aggravated by the treatment we expose urban trees to as 
Ian describes.
May I make it absolutely clear that I do make any criticism of the
coroner at all.  I'm not sure I understand tree risk as
comprehensively as I should
- and I'm supposed to know!
Despite being unable to gauge their efficacy, tree risk assessments
are necessary as the alternative is utter indifference.  I like to
think that we have saved some damage, injury and death over the
years, but that is merely intuitive.
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 03 October 2019 22:02
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

Thanks for the excellent summary; unfortunately it appears that the
UK is plagued with some of the same threats to trees that are common in 
the US.
Trees need advocates, but so do victims of tree failures--as I said,
trees don't fail unless the, shall we say, the stress:resistance
ratio comes into balance. That, plus one "silly millimeter" of
additional force is added by one last insult to tree integrity, is
all it takes to come to the last straw, and the camel or tree is lost, 
taking other things with it.

There can be no question that predicting *when* a tree is going to
fall is functionally impossible, but even though some indicators of
an unarrested trend toward further instability may be difficult to
assess, that should not license the ignoring of obvious
indicators/factors that add up to that trend. If, shall we say, that
proactive measures were taken to intercept such trees or branches
before they kill some one or smash motorcars, etc., the
precautionary principle should not be said to be taken to extremes.
*In such cases only*, if trees exhibiting clear evidence that such
trends exist, taking them down before they drop (branches or entire
trees) before the trend becomes so advanced that the tree reaches a point 
where it is dangerous to work on/in, it should at least qualify as a 
"mercy killing"
and reduce or eliminate tree hazard potential. After all, the tree
so assessed is going to die anyway, so "putting it out of its
misery" and preventing the loss of whatever it happens to collide
with simply make ultimate good sense.

However, *denial is on the increase*, at least here in the USA
(where it has reached absurd levels from top to bottom), meaning
that it becomes an issue of sense or sentiment in the political
realm. Decision-making in the face of senseless opposition takes courage.

Wayne

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:47 AM Brewster, Ian
<Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

It’s a case of tree fitting in with the street scene not the other
way round as otherwise there would be very few good urban trees.
Once back in the Victorian days and earlier there were no hard
surfaces, just mud tracks, then came gas, electric, cables,
standard highway
builds,
high sided vehicles, all contributing to the gradual shrinkage of
a
trees’
potential crown and root expanse.
So subsequently those large trees and future plantings were
shaped, hybridised (Streetwise!) and pushed into holes thinking
that their roots would inevitably find their own pocket of
gold…often wrapping around a solid pipe to extract condensation or
under a paved surface trying to
grip
onto something solid to hold itself up during those high winds. So
pipes get fractured, repairs carried out hacking through roots by
non arbs,
roots
get shaved and tarmac re-levelled and laid by highways engineers,
by non arbs, etc. etc. So we introduce more utilities, some
statutory like water and telecommunications, and the tree has to
put up or be removed. Any
poor
arborist trying to keep on the top of all this adverse pressure by
providing alternatives/routes and then having to deal with
concerns from residents expectation for more light,
garage/driveway cracks, wanting
more
light, less leaf fall and bird sh*t is one special person imo.
Ever tried finding an actual intact RPA in the highway is a rarity
so that’s why Highway trees have a reduce shelf life having to
contend with other
needs.
Will the root hacking, branch cutting ever cease, doubt it. But
those utility and highways engineers need to be aware of the
consequences as a result of their actions.
What ever happened to the most excellent NJUG?

From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 03 October 2019 19:19
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

Ok, but how about other tree professionals?

Remember, I'm from the USA, so don't know anything about UK laws, etc.

I look at tree condition solely from the standpoint of the tree.
My study has revealed that nearly all street and highway tree
failures occur
because
of some form of interference to the tree's normal development--to
put it politely. Here in the USA, I am beginning to suspect that
too much is
taken
for granted with (dis?)respect to trees. Root damage, including 
"pruning"
does not improve tree condition and is unjustifiable. Crown
pruning practices such as "lacing" and "top-hatting" seem to be
expedients practiced by those with limited knowledge of tree
biology. Any pruning
that
unbalances the crown is similarly suspect. Highway construction
tends to damage the root systems of adjacent trees, and and street
tree planting also interferes with normal root system development.
Needless to say, trenching, even at some distance from the tree
reduces the amount of resistance to toppling, even though severed roots 
are relatively small.
Large roots on most species do not "grow back." I could go on, but
you
get
my drift. I am interested in how other countries approach trees
and their management and prevention of damage, injury, and death
due to tree failures.

Tree failures or often blamed on God or Nature in the USA, or are
written off as "freak accidents." Bs.

My recommendations will have the effect of increasing
work/business for tree professionals, not reducing it. But it also
will increase the level
of
competence. Any yahoo with a chain saw should not be able to pass
themselves off as any sort of tree professional, so the
incompetent and others who are certain they know everything may be
concerned about the exposure of their "new clothes" as being at
least transparent if not nonexistent. Of course those on this list
are, by definition, presumed to be exceptions--their participation
in this forum is a sign of intelligent enquiry, not arrogance (with, 
perhaps, occasional exceptions).

Wayne

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:36 AM Brewster, Ian
<Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk <mailto:Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>>
wrote:

I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid,
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



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http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>
NPS
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid,
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>



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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>
It’s a case of tree fitting in with the street scene not the other
way round as otherwise there would be very few good urban trees.
Once back in the Victorian days and earlier there were no hard
surfaces, just mud tracks, then came gas, electric, cables,
standard highway
builds,
high sided vehicles, all contributing to the gradual shrinkage of
a
trees’
potential crown and root expanse.
So subsequently those large trees and future plantings were
shaped, hybridised (Streetwise!) and pushed into holes thinking
that their roots would inevitably find their own pocket of
gold…often wrapping around a solid pipe to extract condensation or
under a paved surface trying to
grip
onto something solid to hold itself up during those high winds. So
pipes get fractured, repairs carried out hacking through roots by
non arbs,
roots
get shaved and tarmac re-levelled and laid by highways engineers,
by non arbs, etc. etc. So we introduce more utilities, some
statutory like water and telecommunications, and the tree has to
put up or be removed. Any
poor
arborist trying to keep on the top of all this adverse pressure by
providing alternatives/routes and then having to deal with
concerns from residents expectation for more light,
garage/driveway cracks, wanting
more
light, less leaf fall and bird sh*t is one special person imo.
Ever tried finding an actual intact RPA in the highway is a rarity
so that’s why Highway trees have a reduce shelf life having to
contend with other
needs.
Will the root hacking, branch cutting ever cease, doubt it. But
those utility and highways engineers need to be aware of the
consequences as a result of their actions.
What ever happened to the most excellent NJUG?

From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 03 October 2019 19:19
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

Ok, but how about other tree professionals?

Remember, I'm from the USA, so don't know anything about UK laws, etc.

I look at tree condition solely from the standpoint of the tree.
My study has revealed that nearly all street and highway tree
failures occur
because
of some form of interference to the tree's normal development--to
put it politely. Here in the USA, I am beginning to suspect that
too much is
taken
for granted with (dis?)respect to trees. Root damage, including 
"pruning"
does not improve tree condition and is unjustifiable. Crown
pruning practices such as "lacing" and "top-hatting" seem to be
expedients practiced by those with limited knowledge of tree
biology. Any pruning
that
unbalances the crown is similarly suspect. Highway construction
tends to damage the root systems of adjacent trees, and and street
tree planting also interferes with normal root system development.
Needless to say, trenching, even at some distance from the tree
reduces the amount of resistance to toppling, even though severed roots 
are relatively small.
Large roots on most species do not "grow back." I could go on, but
you
get
my drift. I am interested in how other countries approach trees
and their management and prevention of damage, injury, and death
due to tree failures.

Tree failures or often blamed on God or Nature in the USA, or are
written off as "freak accidents." Bs.

My recommendations will have the effect of increasing
work/business for tree professionals, not reducing it. But it also
will increase the level
of
competence. Any yahoo with a chain saw should not be able to pass
themselves off as any sort of tree professional, so the
incompetent and others who are certain they know everything may be
concerned about the exposure of their "new clothes" as being at
least transparent if not nonexistent. Of course those on this list
are, by definition, presumed to be exceptions--their participation
in this forum is a sign of intelligent enquiry, not arrogance (with, 
perhaps, occasional exceptions).

Wayne

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:36 AM Brewster, Ian
<Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk <mailto:Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>>
wrote:

I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid,
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>
NPS
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid,
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>



--
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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>




--
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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

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http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>
NPS




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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
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