UKTC Archive

Re: RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree needs and effects

Subject: Re: RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree needs and effects
From: Julian Morris
Date: Oct 11 2019 09:49:03
I can say that, and I did. You may be confusing 'random' with 'seemingly 
random' or 'quasi-random' or 'unattributed' or other loose terminology like 
that.

I'm not some sort of weirdo in a sect, I have studies physics at university 
level, and it's only at that depth of study that the scientist has to 
recognise that not everything is a matter of cause and effect, right down to 
the atomic level. One enters the troubling field of quantum mechanics and 
Schroedinger's feline friends. It's only there that randomness seems to 
occur. It's got nothing to do with determinism.

So you are equating 'not determinable in any normal sense' with 'random'. 
They're not the same. They feel the same, and the factors affecting outcomes 
may be so many and so complex that it looks random, but it's not. You can get 
near-randomness pulling numbered balls blindly out of a bag or a card from a 
shuffled pack. That's what statisticians call random, namely all outcomes 
having an equal probability. And ironically, to get the randomness the number 
of factors have to be tiny.

Admittedly where a conifer pollen will end up may seem random, but you could 
narrow it down a bit, prevaliling winds at pollination time, temperature and 
humidity that control pollen shedding, you could combine the two factors and 
get a likely direction and distance. It's complex but it's still not random. 
Studies have been published that show (and then partly explain) these 
distribution patterns.

A tree's shape is a product of many factors too, and it's one of the fun 
detective jobs to try and backtrack the tree's history and see what happened 
and perhaps why. One might never know completely but it's definitely not 
random. I have young trees I planted form nothing and I can explain every 
twist and turn in them, the relative length of every twig, because I have sen 
them every day and known the weather for their whole lives. At that scale 
it's possible to know all there is to know, and it's sure as heck not random. 
  

Back to the point, tree failures are not random, but it might seem that way 
to the indifferent, the uninformed or the momentarty observer. Factors 
combine (including factors that may be hidden) to result in failure of that 
part of that tree at that time. As I said before, training, experience, 
observation, analysis and so forth can allow us to narrow down the 
probabilites, and we do this because the law requires the common man to 
reasonably foresee harm or damage and to do something about it. He may be 
exonerated after a failure that harms someone, not because the failure was 
random but because it was unlikely and unforeseeable. That's not the same as 
'random'.

Doesn't our entire profession depend on being able to tell the difference 
between trees that are more or less likely to fail than others? Aren't we 
trained and paid to tell the difference, in effect reducing randomness to the 
foreseeable v unforeseeable decision that the law requires of everyone?

I stand by my point, tree failures are not random. The day I can't tell the 
difference, I'll retire and live off my premium bonds.

Julian A. Morris - Professional Tree Services
jamtrees.co.uk  and  highhedgesscotland.com 
0778 XXX XXXX - 0141 XXX XXXX


Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 at 5:47 PM
From: "Rupert Baker" <rupert_baker@xxxxxxxx.co.uk>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree 
needs and effects

Hi Julian,
Ignoring everything else re this,  you cannot seriously say that 'nothing 
is random in nature' - unless you are one of a narrow sect of determinists. 
Most processes in the natural world have at least an element of randomness 
to them. 
 Imagine - to take an example from our field - that you have a conifer 
shedding pollen. Where those individual pollen grains go is not 
determinable in any normal sense - where they end up will be random. There 
is an element of randomness in the architecture of trees - added to a basic 
design iteration. 
Such randomness drives the outcome, so what a tree eventually ends up like 
will be a combination of genetically determined growth, and random stimuli 
influencing the final shape.- leaving Norfolk Island Pine aside, perhaps - 
they are more like a construction kit than a tree, presumably because their 
shape is under very strong genetic control.
So if you have a tree whose shape is partly determined by random 
influences, in some cases this will lead to trees with what we arbs call 
defects - potential failure points.

Atb
Rupert
 

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info On Behalf Of Julian Morris
Sent: 10 October 2019 09:50
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree 
needs and effects

I disagree strongly with Jim's take on this. Tree failures are not random. 
Nothing is random in nature, save perhaps the timing of spontaneous 
degradation of individual radioactive elements.

We might not have the information to predict when part of a tree will fail, 
partly because we haven't a full understanding of the physiology and 
biomechanics of trees, partly because we haven't the ability to predict 
microclimatic conditions around the tree and partly because we cannot see 
inside the tree and the soil around it, nut it's sure as heck not random. 
It may seem quasi-random, but an experienced professional should be able to 
narrow it down a good deal.

After all, were it truly random there would be no such thing as reasonable 
foreseability, and thus no basis for duty of care.

At odds with the statement "tree risk assessments are necessary as the 
alternative is utter indifference" I'd say they are necessary as a defence 
against liability in negligence. Most clients require them not to save 
lives but to save liability.

There, it's more interesting if someone gives a reasoned disagreement. I 
wouldn't want you thinking that Jim had it in an nutshell.

Julian A. Morris - Professional Tree Services jamtrees.co.uk  and  
highhedgesscotland.com
0778 XXX XXXX - 0141 XXX XXXX

be 
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 at 5:59 PM
From: "Wayne Tyson" <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street 
tree needs and effects

Re: Jim Quaife's reply of October 4, 2019

Would I be correct in assuming that Jim's reply sums up the universal 
position of the tree management profession(s) on this collective/forum?

Wayne

On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 12:23 AM Jim Quaife <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

The difficulty is that tree failures of any significance are not 
only rare, but largely unpredictable.  We may see a "dodgy" branch 
overhanging a road and feel that we have done our job by requiring 
it to be removed (as we have), but we have absolutely no basis upon 
which to assess whether an incident has been prevented.
As I have said before, we have no statistically significant data 
upon which to assess tree risk.  In the professional field of 
statistics, being significant is not primarily a matter of the 
sample size (which with tree risk is microscopic) although that is a 
factor, it means that the results can discount randomness.  
Whichever way one looks at it, tree failures are random, and incidents 
caused by tree failure are also random.
There is no easy answer because the primary drive for tree risk 
assessment is from insurers.  The coroner in the Wirral case had no 
advice provided about tree risk and although the recommendation for 
the authority to smarten up its act was correct, the stated purpose 
was to "prevent" another such incident.  There is no tree risk 
assessment - in the world - that can prevent tree failures.  Tree 
risk might be reduced, although we have absolutely no idea as to the 
effectiveness, but other than clear-felling tree failures are a fact 
of nature, and aggravated by the treatment we expose urban trees to as 
Ian describes.
May I make it absolutely clear that I do make any criticism of the 
coroner at all.  I'm not sure I understand tree risk as 
comprehensively as I should
- and I'm supposed to know!
Despite being unable to gauge their efficacy, tree risk assessments 
are necessary as the alternative is utter indifference.  I like to 
think that we have saved some damage, injury and death over the 
years, but that is merely intuitive.
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 03 October 2019 22:02
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and 
street tree needs and effects

Thanks for the excellent summary; unfortunately it appears that the 
UK is plagued with some of the same threats to trees that are common in 
the US.
Trees need advocates, but so do victims of tree failures--as I said, 
trees don't fail unless the, shall we say, the stress:resistance 
ratio comes into balance. That, plus one "silly millimeter" of 
additional force is added by one last insult to tree integrity, is 
all it takes to come to the last straw, and the camel or tree is lost, 
taking other things with it.

There can be no question that predicting *when* a tree is going to 
fall is functionally impossible, but even though some indicators of 
an unarrested trend toward further instability may be difficult to 
assess, that should not license the ignoring of obvious 
indicators/factors that add up to that trend. If, shall we say, that 
proactive measures were taken to intercept such trees or branches 
before they kill some one or smash motorcars, etc., the 
precautionary principle should not be said to be taken to extremes. 
*In such cases only*, if trees exhibiting clear evidence that such 
trends exist, taking them down before they drop (branches or entire 
trees) before the trend becomes so advanced that the tree reaches a 
point where it is dangerous to work on/in, it should at least qualify 
as a "mercy killing"
and reduce or eliminate tree hazard potential. After all, the tree 
so assessed is going to die anyway, so "putting it out of its 
misery" and preventing the loss of whatever it happens to collide 
with simply make ultimate good sense.

However, *denial is on the increase*, at least here in the USA 
(where it has reached absurd levels from top to bottom), meaning 
that it becomes an issue of sense or sentiment in the political 
realm. Decision-making in the face of senseless opposition takes 
courage.

Wayne

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:47 AM Brewster, Ian 
<Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

It’s a case of tree fitting in with the street scene not the other 
way round as otherwise there would be very few good urban trees.
Once back in the Victorian days and earlier there were no hard 
surfaces, just mud tracks, then came gas, electric, cables, 
standard highway
builds,
high sided vehicles, all contributing to the gradual shrinkage of 
a
trees’
potential crown and root expanse.
So subsequently those large trees and future plantings were 
shaped, hybridised (Streetwise!) and pushed into holes thinking 
that their roots would inevitably find their own pocket of 
gold…often wrapping around a solid pipe to extract condensation or 
under a paved surface trying to
grip
onto something solid to hold itself up during those high winds. So 
pipes get fractured, repairs carried out hacking through roots by 
non arbs,
roots
get shaved and tarmac re-levelled and laid by highways engineers, 
by non arbs, etc. etc. So we introduce more utilities, some 
statutory like water and telecommunications, and the tree has to 
put up or be removed. Any
poor
arborist trying to keep on the top of all this adverse pressure by 
providing alternatives/routes and then having to deal with 
concerns from residents expectation for more light, 
garage/driveway cracks, wanting
more
light, less leaf fall and bird sh*t is one special person imo. 
Ever tried finding an actual intact RPA in the highway is a rarity 
so that’s why Highway trees have a reduce shelf life having to 
contend with other
needs.
Will the root hacking, branch cutting ever cease, doubt it. But 
those utility and highways engineers need to be aware of the 
consequences as a result of their actions.
What ever happened to the most excellent NJUG?

From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 03 October 2019 19:19
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and 
street tree needs and effects

Ok, but how about other tree professionals?

Remember, I'm from the USA, so don't know anything about UK laws, etc.

I look at tree condition solely from the standpoint of the tree. 
My study has revealed that nearly all street and highway tree 
failures occur
because
of some form of interference to the tree's normal development--to 
put it politely. Here in the USA, I am beginning to suspect that 
too much is
taken
for granted with (dis?)respect to trees. Root damage, including 
"pruning"
does not improve tree condition and is unjustifiable. Crown 
pruning practices such as "lacing" and "top-hatting" seem to be 
expedients practiced by those with limited knowledge of tree 
biology. Any pruning
that
unbalances the crown is similarly suspect. Highway construction 
tends to damage the root systems of adjacent trees, and and street 
tree planting also interferes with normal root system development. 
Needless to say, trenching, even at some distance from the tree 
reduces the amount of resistance to toppling, even though severed 
roots are relatively small.
Large roots on most species do not "grow back." I could go on, but 
you
get
my drift. I am interested in how other countries approach trees 
and their management and prevention of damage, injury, and death 
due to tree failures.

Tree failures or often blamed on God or Nature in the USA, or are 
written off as "freak accidents." Bs.

My recommendations will have the effect of increasing 
work/business for tree professionals, not reducing it. But it also 
will increase the level
of
competence. Any yahoo with a chain saw should not be able to pass 
themselves off as any sort of tree professional, so the 
incompetent and others who are certain they know everything may be 
concerned about the exposure of their "new clothes" as being at 
least transparent if not nonexistent. Of course those on this list 
are, by definition, presumed to be exceptions--their participation 
in this forum is a sign of intelligent enquiry, not arrogance (with, 
perhaps, occasional exceptions).

Wayne

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:36 AM Brewster, Ian 
<Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk <mailto:Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>>
wrote:

I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the 
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this 
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the 
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this 
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and 
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in 
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of 
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned 
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, 
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree 
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



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http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>
NPS
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and 
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in 
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of 
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned 
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, 
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree 
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy 
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>



--
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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

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http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>




--
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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy 
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>
It’s a case of tree fitting in with the street scene not the other 
way round as otherwise there would be very few good urban trees.
Once back in the Victorian days and earlier there were no hard 
surfaces, just mud tracks, then came gas, electric, cables, 
standard highway
builds,
high sided vehicles, all contributing to the gradual shrinkage of 
a
trees’
potential crown and root expanse.
So subsequently those large trees and future plantings were 
shaped, hybridised (Streetwise!) and pushed into holes thinking 
that their roots would inevitably find their own pocket of 
gold…often wrapping around a solid pipe to extract condensation or 
under a paved surface trying to
grip
onto something solid to hold itself up during those high winds. So 
pipes get fractured, repairs carried out hacking through roots by 
non arbs,
roots
get shaved and tarmac re-levelled and laid by highways engineers, 
by non arbs, etc. etc. So we introduce more utilities, some 
statutory like water and telecommunications, and the tree has to 
put up or be removed. Any
poor
arborist trying to keep on the top of all this adverse pressure by 
providing alternatives/routes and then having to deal with 
concerns from residents expectation for more light, 
garage/driveway cracks, wanting
more
light, less leaf fall and bird sh*t is one special person imo. 
Ever tried finding an actual intact RPA in the highway is a rarity 
so that’s why Highway trees have a reduce shelf life having to 
contend with other
needs.
Will the root hacking, branch cutting ever cease, doubt it. But 
those utility and highways engineers need to be aware of the 
consequences as a result of their actions.
What ever happened to the most excellent NJUG?

From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 03 October 2019 19:19
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and 
street tree needs and effects

Ok, but how about other tree professionals?

Remember, I'm from the USA, so don't know anything about UK laws, etc.

I look at tree condition solely from the standpoint of the tree. 
My study has revealed that nearly all street and highway tree 
failures occur
because
of some form of interference to the tree's normal development--to 
put it politely. Here in the USA, I am beginning to suspect that 
too much is
taken
for granted with (dis?)respect to trees. Root damage, including 
"pruning"
does not improve tree condition and is unjustifiable. Crown 
pruning practices such as "lacing" and "top-hatting" seem to be 
expedients practiced by those with limited knowledge of tree 
biology. Any pruning
that
unbalances the crown is similarly suspect. Highway construction 
tends to damage the root systems of adjacent trees, and and street 
tree planting also interferes with normal root system development. 
Needless to say, trenching, even at some distance from the tree 
reduces the amount of resistance to toppling, even though severed 
roots are relatively small.
Large roots on most species do not "grow back." I could go on, but 
you
get
my drift. I am interested in how other countries approach trees 
and their management and prevention of damage, injury, and death 
due to tree failures.

Tree failures or often blamed on God or Nature in the USA, or are 
written off as "freak accidents." Bs.

My recommendations will have the effect of increasing 
work/business for tree professionals, not reducing it. But it also 
will increase the level
of
competence. Any yahoo with a chain saw should not be able to pass 
themselves off as any sort of tree professional, so the 
incompetent and others who are certain they know everything may be 
concerned about the exposure of their "new clothes" as being at 
least transparent if not nonexistent. Of course those on this list 
are, by definition, presumed to be exceptions--their participation 
in this forum is a sign of intelligent enquiry, not arrogance (with, 
perhaps, occasional exceptions).

Wayne

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:36 AM Brewster, Ian 
<Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk <mailto:Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>>
wrote:

I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the 
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this 
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the 
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this 
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and 
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in 
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of 
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned 
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, 
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree 
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy 
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>
NPS
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and 
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in 
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of 
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned 
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid, 
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree 
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy 
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>



--
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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy 
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>




--
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http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>
NPS




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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy 
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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
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