UKTC Archive

Re: RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree needs and effects

Subject: Re: RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street tree needs and effects
From: Wayne Tyson
Date: Oct 11 2019 21:03:07
I quite agree with Julian. Each tree and its context (including its
condition) is unique.

Post failure analysis can be easy/obvious as to at least some of the
factors involved in the event; some are more difficult to see or determine,
but that's no excuse for failing to responsibly investigate further.

Various factors affect the tree's resistance to gravity. Gravity is the
LAW!

No one can predict just when a tree/branch/root is going to fall, but
trends can be observed and measured. Either the tree is getting stronger or
weaker. If the latter can be reversed and a trend toward increasing
strength can be established, such work is worth doing. Half-measures that
do not establish a strengthening trend tend to place the work and the
professional on questionable ground.

Various factors affect the tree's stability (e.g., structural strength,
root resistance, tree balance, wind, and angle from vertical, etc.)

Various factors affect resistance, such as root damage, pathogens, damage
(including sawcuts) to the upper structure, etc.

Trees are (like) levers. The longer/taller the moment-arm, the more
(exponential) force is exerted upon the pivot-point (the weakest part of
the structure). The branch/leaf load attached to the branch or tree adds
weight, commonly at the ends of the moment-arms.

When the sum of the forces acting upon the tree exceed its resistance,
failure (branches, trunks, roots) occurs.

If useful progress is to be made in tree management, a system of data
collection and analysis is essential. Guesswork and "experience" alone are
not enough.

Wayne

I look forward to the application of critical thinking to refine or refute
all or part of these statements. Corrections are avidly sought.






On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 2:49 AM Julian Morris <jamorris@xxxxx.com> wrote:

I can say that, and I did. You may be confusing 'random' with 'seemingly
random' or 'quasi-random' or 'unattributed' or other loose terminology like
that.

I'm not some sort of weirdo in a sect, I have studies physics at
university level, and it's only at that depth of study that the scientist
has to recognise that not everything is a matter of cause and effect, right
down to the atomic level. One enters the troubling field of quantum
mechanics and Schroedinger's feline friends. It's only there that
randomness seems to occur. It's got nothing to do with determinism.

So you are equating 'not determinable in any normal sense' with 'random'.
They're not the same. They feel the same, and the factors affecting
outcomes may be so many and so complex that it looks random, but it's not.
You can get near-randomness pulling numbered balls blindly out of a bag or
a card from a shuffled pack. That's what statisticians call random, namely
all outcomes having an equal probability. And ironically, to get the
randomness the number of factors have to be tiny.

Admittedly where a conifer pollen will end up may seem random, but you
could narrow it down a bit, prevaliling winds at pollination time,
temperature and humidity that control pollen shedding, you could combine
the two factors and get a likely direction and distance. It's complex but
it's still not random. Studies have been published that show (and then
partly explain) these distribution patterns.

A tree's shape is a product of many factors too, and it's one of the fun
detective jobs to try and backtrack the tree's history and see what
happened and perhaps why. One might never know completely but it's
definitely not random. I have young trees I planted form nothing and I can
explain every twist and turn in them, the relative length of every twig,
because I have sen them every day and known the weather for their whole
lives. At that scale it's possible to know all there is to know, and it's
sure as heck not random.

Back to the point, tree failures are not random, but it might seem that
way to the indifferent, the uninformed or the momentarty observer. Factors
combine (including factors that may be hidden) to result in failure of that
part of that tree at that time. As I said before, training, experience,
observation, analysis and so forth can allow us to narrow down the
probabilites, and we do this because the law requires the common man to
reasonably foresee harm or damage and to do something about it. He may be
exonerated after a failure that harms someone, not because the failure was
random but because it was unlikely and unforeseeable. That's not the same
as 'random'.

Doesn't our entire profession depend on being able to tell the difference
between trees that are more or less likely to fail than others? Aren't we
trained and paid to tell the difference, in effect reducing randomness to
the foreseeable v unforeseeable decision that the law requires of everyone?

I stand by my point, tree failures are not random. The day I can't tell
the difference, I'll retire and live off my premium bonds.

Julian A. Morris - Professional Tree Services
jamtrees.co.uk  and  highhedgesscotland.com
0778 XXX XXXX - 0141 XXX XXXX


Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 at 5:47 PM
From: "Rupert Baker" <rupert_baker@xxxxxxxx.co.uk>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree needs and effects

Hi Julian,
Ignoring everything else re this,  you cannot seriously say that
'nothing is random in nature' - unless you are one of a narrow sect of
determinists.
Most processes in the natural world have at least an element of
randomness to them.
 Imagine - to take an example from our field - that you have a conifer
shedding pollen. Where those individual pollen grains go is not
determinable in any normal sense - where they end up will be random. There
is an element of randomness in the architecture of trees - added to a basic
design iteration.
Such randomness drives the outcome, so what a tree eventually ends up
like will be a combination of genetically determined growth, and random
stimuli influencing the final shape.- leaving Norfolk Island Pine aside,
perhaps - they are more like a construction kit than a tree, presumably
because their shape is under very strong genetic control.
So if you have a tree whose shape is partly determined by random
influences, in some cases this will lead to trees with what we arbs call
defects - potential failure points.

Atb
Rupert


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info On Behalf Of Julian Morris
Sent: 10 October 2019 09:50
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree needs and effects

I disagree strongly with Jim's take on this. Tree failures are not
random. Nothing is random in nature, save perhaps the timing of spontaneous
degradation of individual radioactive elements.

We might not have the information to predict when part of a tree will
fail, partly because we haven't a full understanding of the physiology and
biomechanics of trees, partly because we haven't the ability to predict
microclimatic conditions around the tree and partly because we cannot see
inside the tree and the soil around it, nut it's sure as heck not random.
It may seem quasi-random, but an experienced professional should be able to
narrow it down a good deal.

After all, were it truly random there would be no such thing as
reasonable foreseability, and thus no basis for duty of care.

At odds with the statement "tree risk assessments are necessary as the
alternative is utter indifference" I'd say they are necessary as a defence
against liability in negligence. Most clients require them not to save
lives but to save liability.

There, it's more interesting if someone gives a reasoned disagreement. I
wouldn't want you thinking that Jim had it in an nutshell.

Julian A. Morris - Professional Tree Services jamtrees.co.uk  and
highhedgesscotland.com
0778 XXX XXXX - 0141 XXX XXXX

be
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 at 5:59 PM
From: "Wayne Tyson" <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and street
tree needs and effects

Re: Jim Quaife's reply of October 4, 2019

Would I be correct in assuming that Jim's reply sums up the universal
position of the tree management profession(s) on this collective/forum?

Wayne

On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 12:23 AM Jim Quaife <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

The difficulty is that tree failures of any significance are not
only rare, but largely unpredictable.  We may see a "dodgy" branch
overhanging a road and feel that we have done our job by requiring
it to be removed (as we have), but we have absolutely no basis upon
which to assess whether an incident has been prevented.
As I have said before, we have no statistically significant data
upon which to assess tree risk.  In the professional field of
statistics, being significant is not primarily a matter of the
sample size (which with tree risk is microscopic) although that is a
factor, it means that the results can discount randomness.
Whichever way one looks at it, tree failures are random, and
incidents caused by tree failure are also random.
There is no easy answer because the primary drive for tree risk
assessment is from insurers.  The coroner in the Wirral case had no
advice provided about tree risk and although the recommendation for
the authority to smarten up its act was correct, the stated purpose
was to "prevent" another such incident.  There is no tree risk
assessment - in the world - that can prevent tree failures.  Tree
risk might be reduced, although we have absolutely no idea as to the
effectiveness, but other than clear-felling tree failures are a fact
of nature, and aggravated by the treatment we expose urban trees to
as Ian describes.
May I make it absolutely clear that I do make any criticism of the
coroner at all.  I'm not sure I understand tree risk as
comprehensively as I should
- and I'm supposed to know!
Despite being unable to gauge their efficacy, tree risk assessments
are necessary as the alternative is utter indifference.  I like to
think that we have saved some damage, injury and death over the
years, but that is merely intuitive.
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 03 October 2019 22:02
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

Thanks for the excellent summary; unfortunately it appears that the
UK is plagued with some of the same threats to trees that are common
in the US.
Trees need advocates, but so do victims of tree failures--as I said,
trees don't fail unless the, shall we say, the stress:resistance
ratio comes into balance. That, plus one "silly millimeter" of
additional force is added by one last insult to tree integrity, is
all it takes to come to the last straw, and the camel or tree is
lost, taking other things with it.

There can be no question that predicting *when* a tree is going to
fall is functionally impossible, but even though some indicators of
an unarrested trend toward further instability may be difficult to
assess, that should not license the ignoring of obvious
indicators/factors that add up to that trend. If, shall we say, that
proactive measures were taken to intercept such trees or branches
before they kill some one or smash motorcars, etc., the
precautionary principle should not be said to be taken to extremes.
*In such cases only*, if trees exhibiting clear evidence that such
trends exist, taking them down before they drop (branches or entire
trees) before the trend becomes so advanced that the tree reaches a
point where it is dangerous to work on/in, it should at least qualify as a
"mercy killing"
and reduce or eliminate tree hazard potential. After all, the tree
so assessed is going to die anyway, so "putting it out of its
misery" and preventing the loss of whatever it happens to collide
with simply make ultimate good sense.

However, *denial is on the increase*, at least here in the USA
(where it has reached absurd levels from top to bottom), meaning
that it becomes an issue of sense or sentiment in the political
realm. Decision-making in the face of senseless opposition takes
courage.

Wayne

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:47 AM Brewster, Ian
<Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

It’s a case of tree fitting in with the street scene not the other
way round as otherwise there would be very few good urban trees.
Once back in the Victorian days and earlier there were no hard
surfaces, just mud tracks, then came gas, electric, cables,
standard highway
builds,
high sided vehicles, all contributing to the gradual shrinkage of
a
trees’
potential crown and root expanse.
So subsequently those large trees and future plantings were
shaped, hybridised (Streetwise!) and pushed into holes thinking
that their roots would inevitably find their own pocket of
gold…often wrapping around a solid pipe to extract condensation or
under a paved surface trying to
grip
onto something solid to hold itself up during those high winds. So
pipes get fractured, repairs carried out hacking through roots by
non arbs,
roots
get shaved and tarmac re-levelled and laid by highways engineers,
by non arbs, etc. etc. So we introduce more utilities, some
statutory like water and telecommunications, and the tree has to
put up or be removed. Any
poor
arborist trying to keep on the top of all this adverse pressure by
providing alternatives/routes and then having to deal with
concerns from residents expectation for more light,
garage/driveway cracks, wanting
more
light, less leaf fall and bird sh*t is one special person imo.
Ever tried finding an actual intact RPA in the highway is a rarity
so that’s why Highway trees have a reduce shelf life having to
contend with other
needs.
Will the root hacking, branch cutting ever cease, doubt it. But
those utility and highways engineers need to be aware of the
consequences as a result of their actions.
What ever happened to the most excellent NJUG?

From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 03 October 2019 19:19
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

Ok, but how about other tree professionals?

Remember, I'm from the USA, so don't know anything about UK laws,
etc.

I look at tree condition solely from the standpoint of the tree.
My study has revealed that nearly all street and highway tree
failures occur
because
of some form of interference to the tree's normal development--to
put it politely. Here in the USA, I am beginning to suspect that
too much is
taken
for granted with (dis?)respect to trees. Root damage, including
"pruning"
does not improve tree condition and is unjustifiable. Crown
pruning practices such as "lacing" and "top-hatting" seem to be
expedients practiced by those with limited knowledge of tree
biology. Any pruning
that
unbalances the crown is similarly suspect. Highway construction
tends to damage the root systems of adjacent trees, and and street
tree planting also interferes with normal root system development.
Needless to say, trenching, even at some distance from the tree
reduces the amount of resistance to toppling, even though severed
roots are relatively small.
Large roots on most species do not "grow back." I could go on, but
you
get
my drift. I am interested in how other countries approach trees
and their management and prevention of damage, injury, and death
due to tree failures.

Tree failures or often blamed on God or Nature in the USA, or are
written off as "freak accidents." Bs.

My recommendations will have the effect of increasing
work/business for tree professionals, not reducing it. But it also
will increase the level
of
competence. Any yahoo with a chain saw should not be able to pass
themselves off as any sort of tree professional, so the
incompetent and others who are certain they know everything may be
concerned about the exposure of their "new clothes" as being at
least transparent if not nonexistent. Of course those on this list
are, by definition, presumed to be exceptions--their participation
in this forum is a sign of intelligent enquiry, not arrogance
(with, perhaps, occasional exceptions).

Wayne

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:36 AM Brewster, Ian
<Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk <mailto:Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>>
wrote:

I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid,
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

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http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>
NPS
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid,
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>



--
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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

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http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>




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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

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http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>
It’s a case of tree fitting in with the street scene not the other
way round as otherwise there would be very few good urban trees.
Once back in the Victorian days and earlier there were no hard
surfaces, just mud tracks, then came gas, electric, cables,
standard highway
builds,
high sided vehicles, all contributing to the gradual shrinkage of
a
trees’
potential crown and root expanse.
So subsequently those large trees and future plantings were
shaped, hybridised (Streetwise!) and pushed into holes thinking
that their roots would inevitably find their own pocket of
gold…often wrapping around a solid pipe to extract condensation or
under a paved surface trying to
grip
onto something solid to hold itself up during those high winds. So
pipes get fractured, repairs carried out hacking through roots by
non arbs,
roots
get shaved and tarmac re-levelled and laid by highways engineers,
by non arbs, etc. etc. So we introduce more utilities, some
statutory like water and telecommunications, and the tree has to
put up or be removed. Any
poor
arborist trying to keep on the top of all this adverse pressure by
providing alternatives/routes and then having to deal with
concerns from residents expectation for more light,
garage/driveway cracks, wanting
more
light, less leaf fall and bird sh*t is one special person imo.
Ever tried finding an actual intact RPA in the highway is a rarity
so that’s why Highway trees have a reduce shelf life having to
contend with other
needs.
Will the root hacking, branch cutting ever cease, doubt it. But
those utility and highways engineers need to be aware of the
consequences as a result of their actions.
What ever happened to the most excellent NJUG?

From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 03 October 2019 19:19
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

Ok, but how about other tree professionals?

Remember, I'm from the USA, so don't know anything about UK laws,
etc.

I look at tree condition solely from the standpoint of the tree.
My study has revealed that nearly all street and highway tree
failures occur
because
of some form of interference to the tree's normal development--to
put it politely. Here in the USA, I am beginning to suspect that
too much is
taken
for granted with (dis?)respect to trees. Root damage, including
"pruning"
does not improve tree condition and is unjustifiable. Crown
pruning practices such as "lacing" and "top-hatting" seem to be
expedients practiced by those with limited knowledge of tree
biology. Any pruning
that
unbalances the crown is similarly suspect. Highway construction
tends to damage the root systems of adjacent trees, and and street
tree planting also interferes with normal root system development.
Needless to say, trenching, even at some distance from the tree
reduces the amount of resistance to toppling, even though severed
roots are relatively small.
Large roots on most species do not "grow back." I could go on, but
you
get
my drift. I am interested in how other countries approach trees
and their management and prevention of damage, injury, and death
due to tree failures.

Tree failures or often blamed on God or Nature in the USA, or are
written off as "freak accidents." Bs.

My recommendations will have the effect of increasing
work/business for tree professionals, not reducing it. But it also
will increase the level
of
competence. Any yahoo with a chain saw should not be able to pass
themselves off as any sort of tree professional, so the
incompetent and others who are certain they know everything may be
concerned about the exposure of their "new clothes" as being at
least transparent if not nonexistent. Of course those on this list
are, by definition, presumed to be exceptions--their participation
in this forum is a sign of intelligent enquiry, not arrogance
(with, perhaps, occasional exceptions).

Wayne

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 7:36 AM Brewster, Ian
<Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk <mailto:Ian.Brewster@xxxxxxx.co.uk>>
wrote:

I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
I expect that would be the majority of tree failures from the
Highway
but
doubt any TO is going to provide you with examples on this
public
forum.
.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid,
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>
NPS
-------- Original message --------
From: Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com<mailto:wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>>
Date: 03/10/2019 15:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Tree hazard potential assessment study Highway and
street tree needs and effects

I would like to hear from as many tree professionals as possible
regarding
how proximity of a highway or other public or private paving in
areas
where
failure of the tree could be due, in part, to substandard root
development
and/or root system damage caused by the construction of
improvements
that
affect tree health and related risk.

I am only concerned with the tree's welfare; I am not concerned
with
laws,
rules, and other conventions that are not based on solid,
preferably scientific, evidence.

I am finding that such proximity is often a factor in tree
health and failures.

Thanks in advance to all respondents.

Wayne



--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/><
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>>



--
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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>




--
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http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/<http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/>
NPS




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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
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