UKTC Archive

RE: How does one inspect big hairy common limes, allowed to grow a secondary forest of basal sprouts?

Subject: RE: How does one inspect big hairy common limes, allowed to grow a secondary forest of basal sprouts?
From: AV Arboriculture
Date: Oct 28 2019 16:17:39
Yes, sorry I meant 'condition to be determined' prior to the epicormics being 
removed.

Regards,Mike CharkowPrincipal Arboriculturist______________________Arbor 
Vitae Arboriculture LtdPlanning surveys, Tree inspections, Bats in trees 
inspections, Arboricultural consultancy, Soil de-compaction, Root 
Investigation, Woodland 
Management.info@avtree.co.ukwww.avtree.co.uk07917XXXXXXCompany 
Registration Number: SC413171

----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Baker <rupert_baker@xxxxxxxx.co.uk>
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 15:05:00 -0000 (GMT)
Subject: RE: How does one inspect big hairy common limes, allowed to grow a 
secondary forest of basal sprouts?

Thanks for that Mike, it mirrors my feelings exactly - assuming that what you 
meant was that the 'condition to be determined' statement was used prior to 
the tree being inspected after epicormics have been removed.
I have discussed the matter with the client, and we've agreed that they will 
provide the labour to clear epicormics round a representative set  - ~1/2 doz 
or so -of the least healthy trees; I will then reinspect, and take it from 
there.

If Dave was right - to use a reduction ad absurdum - we are all out of a job, 
and all our clients would need to do would be to say - ok, we believe that 
the risk from our trees is below a level where we need to take any action 
including looking at them to see if this was so ...............
I cannot imagine that they or their insurers would be very happy with such a 
response
Atb
Rupert

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info On Behalf Of AV Arboriculture
Sent: 28 October 2019 09:47
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: How does one inspect big hairy common limes, allowed to grow a 
secondary forest of basal sprouts?

David,

I think you're missing the point.  I would suggest that one could be held 
negligent by pronouncing a tree to be safe when it hasn't been inspected 
properly (due to epicormics, ivy or whatever).  How would one defend that 
decision in court?  In my opinion, the tree should not be pronounced safe nor 
unsafe, rather 'condition to be determined', after it has been inspected 
properly, i.e. once the epicormics/ivy have been removed.

As professionals we are expected to take all reasonable steps to ensure we 
are inspecting trees as fully as possible.  I do not think it is defensible 
to say that you think a tree is safe because the risk is one in a million, 
when you have no tree-specific evidence to say that.  I have removed 
epicormics and found defects on several occasions; certainly at a much higher 
rate than one in a million.

The deaths from carbon monoxide posioning in the UK equate to around 1 in 
2.25 million.  Would you expect your CORGI inspector to declare your boiler 
safe, just because the risk is so low?

Regards, 

Mike Charkow 

----

[ mailto:info@xxxxxxx.co.uk | info@xxxxxxx.co.uk ] [ https://avtree.co.uk/ | 
www.avtree.co.uk ]
07917XXXXXX
Company Registration Number: SC413171

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Evans" <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.com>
To: "uktc" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Monday, 28 October, 2019 09:24:03
Subject: RE: RE: How does one inspect big hairy common limes, allowed to grow 
a secondary forest of basal sprouts?

<<I frequently get epicormics removed, for clients who have accepted 
well-rounded advice, and epicormic removal can cost as little as £10 a tree.>>

"Well-rounded advice"?

You've sketched out a text book example of hazard focused, risk-averse, 
base-rate neglect, risk entrepreneurship.

I particularly enjoyed the QVC shopping channel sales of pitch of, "Why not 
avoid forking out £250 000 for a claim when epicormic removal MAY save a life 
at a cost AS LITTLE as £10 a tree*?"

How about loosening your clients purse strings bit more by making the life 
that might be saved that of a child?  Even better, adding a possessive 
pronoun could help maximise the fear.  'Your child'.

Here's the reality, to establish some all-important proportionality.

Compared to other everyday risks that we readily accept, the overall risk to 
us and our property from tree failure is extremely low. The annual risk of a 
death or serious injury is less than one in a million. Given the number of 
trees we live with, and how many of us pass under them each and every day, 
being killed or injured by a tree is a very rare event.

That's for all trees.  Let's try to establish a base rate for Lime with 
epicormics and Kretzshmaria duesta.  Say, over the last 10 years.  How many 
Limes were there with epicormic growth, which didn't display obvious defects, 
and hosted Kretzschmaria that produced fruit bodies which could only be seen 
if the epicormics were removed, and resulted in so much decay it caused the 
tree to fail, and then killed or seriously injured someone?  We can already 
figure out the risk is much less than one in ten million.  Shall we just stop 
there?

Cheers

Acer Ventura

*Comes with a free repurposed Michael Parkinson Parker Pen we've got left 
over from our 'Remove all Ivy - You can never be too safe' campaign.
Terms & Conditions Apply.
Costs may vary, and "…the prospects of reducing the risk from tree failure 
below the current level are remote and comparable to finding a microscopic 
needle in a gargantuan haystack."


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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
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