UKTC Archive

Re: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Subject: Re: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?
From: Jerry Ross
Date: Dec 03 2019 14:16:23
OK Paul - I understand these are not regs, but the question still stands, are these more stringent best-practice non-regs actually going to make a difference to the number of injuries? It seems to me that the LOLER situation might be informative as to whether these measures to actually do what they're supposed to do. You say time will tell.   Well has time told as far as LOLER is concerned? There's been plenty of time so there should be lots of pre- and post-LOLER statistics on the number of accidents. Do you (does the HSE) have them? One would, of course, also have to take into account any increase in the number of people working in the industry, so that would be another set of statistics.


On 03/12/2019 13:43, Paul Smith wrote:
Hi Jerry,

I guess "time will tell" and, unlike LOLER, this is not the introduction of 
new HSE regulations but an updating of 'industry best practice' (an academic point 
really.) However, at least now HSE do have better informed figures / stats to measure 
against, unlike previously when LOLER came in.

2 rope working has always been, and will remain, a feature of tree climbing 
techniques but the expectation going forward is that the frequency of such 
will increase and where it does not the justification for such, ie. using a 
single-rope, will have to be robustly determined.

Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)
Email: paul@xxxxxx.org.uk
www.trees.org.uk




Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish,
Stonehouse, Gloucestershire, GL10 3DL
Arboricultural Association Ltd
Company No. 4070377, Charity Number 1083845
Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No. 05180170

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-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> 
On Behalf Of Jerry Ross
Sent: 03 December 2019 13:27
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

By how much will two rope working actually reduce accidents?  If none or 
insignificantly, will it be abandoned?

I asked this question twenty odd years ago when LOLER was introduced, whether 
there would be a review after a few years to determine whether and by how 
many had accidents within the arb industry been reduced; and if the answer 
was none or insignificantly, would the regulations be repealed?
Answer came there none.
I wonder what the answer is: there should be plenty of data now. So can 
anyone tell me by how much HAVE accidents actually been reduced (taking into 
account any change in the number of people working in the industry) since the 
introduction of LOLER?
Of course LOLER was quite successful as a work creation scheme; but did it do 
what it was supposed to do?
Will two-rope working?




On 03/12/2019 12:42, Steve wrote:
Precisely Paul none!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Paul Smith
Sent: 03 December 2019 12:38
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Hi Steve, simplistically the evidence, as far as HSE are concerned, is here 
https://www.trees.org.uk/News-Blog/Latest-News/HSE-Fall-from-Height-Incidents-involving-arborists
 at least to some extent.

Regards,
Paul


Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)
Email: paul@xxxxxx.org.uk
www.trees.org.uk




Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, Charity
Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No.
05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: 03 December 2019 11:58
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Let's be honest this is a totally unjustifiable interference by people that 
are at best uniformed and at worst have a vested interest in additional 
training modules! Where is the evidence to justify this?

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Paul Smith
Sent: 03 December 2019 11:06
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Hi Paul, the "£60 million dollar question" just now.

Acknowledging you are asking here, on UKTC, but if you asked the regulator (the HSE) 
they would say the 'immediate implications' are those they’ve been expecting 
us to have been working to since 2005, i.e. 2 rope with 2 independent anchors...in 
practice the exception rather than the rule.

Further information will follow shortly in relation to the amended / updated 
ICoP, and Technical Guide 1, firstly to industry consultation before 
production and then to be incorporated in updated working practices and 
training / assessment procedures etc.

For now "watch this space", i.e. the AA website, and be thinking about 
opportunities to move to 2-rope working where it will not hinder nor increase the risk 
of working / tree climbing activities, particularly at points of deemed higher risk, 
e.g. on access / on change-overs / using tools etc. Also be thinking about updating 
risk assessments and incorporating the 2-rope hierarchy etc. and associated 
justifications.

Hoping this helps, at least a little.
Regards,
PAUL

Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)
Email: paul@xxxxxx.org.uk




Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, Charity
Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No.
05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of PC
Sent: 03 December 2019 10:49
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Morning all,

Is anybody aware of the immediate implications for climbing Arborists and 
managers in relation to the web-link below:

https://www.trees.org.uk/News-Blog/Latest-News/Two-rope-working-–-an-u
pdate

Thanks,

Paul




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