UKTC Archive

Re: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Subject: Re: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?
From: Bill Anderson
Date: Dec 03 2019 23:31:05
I've been not-climbing for long enough now to find all the kit my crew use
to be puzzling. The two rope system seems to be sufficiently complicated to
significantly increase the risk of omitting to fasten something, so like
Jerry, I'd like to see some numbers that actually show the accident
statistics being decreased by these measures.
My co-workers have been watching various training videos on the topic of
two-rope-working and frequently observe that the two ropes are so close to
each other that cutting them both is almost as likely as cutting only one.
I can also imagine an aerial rescue being complicated by having two ropes
to deal with instead of just one. That said I'm now sufficiently detached
from the tree climbing world to have no valid input into any debate.

On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 21:47, Mike Finch <finchyo@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

As a daily climbing arborist I whole hearty welcome this 'new' move to two
independent climbing systems as the norm. I always find it absurd that we
climb on this small single 11mm line at such height on an unrated and
unknown anchor. I cant wait to see the climbing kits and climbing styles
evolve; look to the USA as they are ahead of us in this regard as usual. I
love the freedom of single rope climbing but there is NO redundancy in
place. If this move can save but one life it is worth it.

Regards, Mike Finch
Finch Arboriculture Ltd

On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 14:21, Paul Smith <paul@xxxxxx.org.uk> wrote:

Hi Jerry, something HSE are currently "looking into" but currently there
is no industry specific 'SIC' code for registering accidents / incidents
to
arb so they have to search the database on key words, very time consuming
and not always very accurate (apparently.)

Hence HSE do have lost of figures / stats but can't categorically say for
arb and whether accidents have reduced because of LOLER.

Equally number of people working in the industry is very difficult to
determine, because of the demographic and lots of self-employed, but a
recent publication indicated circa 21k.

Regards

Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)






















Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish,
Stonehouse, Gloucestershire, GL10 3DL
Arboricultural Association Ltd
Company No. 4070377, Charity Number 1083845
Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No. 05180170

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-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Jerry Ross
Sent: 03 December 2019 14:16
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

OK Paul - I understand these are not regs, but the question still stands,
are these more stringent best-practice non-regs actually going to make a
difference to the number of injuries?
It seems to me that the LOLER situation might be informative as to
whether
these measures to actually do what they're supposed to do. You say time
will tell.   Well has time told as far as LOLER is concerned?
There's been plenty of time so there should be lots of pre- and
post-LOLER
statistics on the number of accidents. Do you (does the HSE) have them?
One would, of course, also have to take into account any increase in the
number of people working in the industry, so that would be another set of
statistics.


On 03/12/2019 13:43, Paul Smith wrote:
Hi Jerry,

I guess "time will tell" and, unlike LOLER, this is not the
introduction
of new HSE regulations but an updating of 'industry best practice' (an
academic point really.) However, at least now HSE do have better informed
figures / stats to measure against, unlike previously when LOLER came in.

2 rope working has always been, and will remain, a feature of tree
climbing techniques but the expectation going forward is that the
frequency
of such will increase and where it does not the justification for such,
ie.
using a single-rope, will have to be robustly determined.


Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)
Email: paul@xxxxxx.org.uk
www.trees.org.uk





















Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, Charity
Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No.
05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Jerry Ross
Sent: 03 December 2019 13:27
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

By how much will two rope working actually reduce accidents?  If none
or
insignificantly, will it be abandoned?

I asked this question twenty odd years ago when LOLER was introduced,
whether there would be a review after a few years to determine whether
and
by how many had accidents within the arb industry been reduced; and if
the
answer was none or insignificantly, would the regulations be repealed?
Answer came there none.
I wonder what the answer is: there should be plenty of data now. So can
anyone tell me by how much HAVE accidents actually been reduced (taking
into account any change in the number of people working in the industry)
since the introduction of LOLER?
Of course LOLER was quite successful as a work creation scheme; but did
it do what it was supposed to do?
Will two-rope working?




On 03/12/2019 12:42, Steve wrote:
Precisely Paul none!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Paul Smith
Sent: 03 December 2019 12:38
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Hi Steve, simplistically the evidence, as far as HSE are concerned, is
here

https://www.trees.org.uk/News-Blog/Latest-News/HSE-Fall-from-Height-Incidents-involving-arborists
at least to some extent.

Regards,
Paul


Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)
Email: paul@xxxxxx.org.uk
www.trees.org.uk





















Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, Charity
Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No.
05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: 03 December 2019 11:58
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Let's be honest this is a totally unjustifiable interference by people
that are at best uniformed and at worst have a vested interest in
additional training modules! Where is the evidence to justify this?

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Paul Smith
Sent: 03 December 2019 11:06
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Hi Paul, the "£60 million dollar question" just now.

Acknowledging you are asking here, on UKTC, but if you asked the
regulator (the HSE) they would say the 'immediate implications' are those
they’ve been expecting us to have been working to since 2005, i.e. 2 rope
with 2 independent anchors...in practice the exception rather than the
rule.

Further information will follow shortly in relation to the amended /
updated ICoP, and Technical Guide 1, firstly to industry consultation
before production and then to be incorporated in updated working
practices
and training / assessment procedures etc.

For now "watch this space", i.e. the AA website, and be thinking about
opportunities to move to 2-rope working where it will not hinder nor
increase the risk of working / tree climbing activities, particularly at
points of deemed higher risk, e.g. on access / on change-overs / using
tools etc. Also be thinking about updating risk assessments and
incorporating the 2-rope hierarchy etc. and associated justifications.

Hoping this helps, at least a little.
Regards,
PAUL



Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)
Email: paul@xxxxxx.org.uk




















Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, Charity
Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No.
05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of PC
Sent: 03 December 2019 10:49
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Morning all,

Is anybody aware of the immediate implications for climbing Arborists
and managers in relation to the web-link below:

https://www.trees.org.uk/News-Blog/Latest-News/Two-rope-working-–-an-
u
pdate

Thanks,

Paul




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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/