UKTC Archive

RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Subject: RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?
From: Steve
Date: Dec 05 2019 11:33:28
Rupert,

I would whole heartedly agree that a secondary, preferably non cut able. 
anchor point is installed before actually working. But this is advocating a 
two rope system as the default choice when ascending and moving about the 
tree (workspace) to points of actual work. Wholly impractical and 
unnecessary. 


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Rupert Baker
Sent: 05 December 2019 10:40
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

Hi Julian,
On rock - eg sea-ciiffs down here - 2 separate 9mm ropes works well on climbs 
where you need to zig-zag a lot by traversing to ascend; otherwise I'd be in 
agreement; though re trees, I'd always advocate a 2ndry anchor point when set 
up to eg make an awkward cut.
Atb
Rupert

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info On Behalf Of Julian Dunster
Sent: 04 December 2019 22:14
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

In rock, ice or mountain climbing about the only time I ever used two 9 mm 
ropes was on horizontal or diagonal traverses, or occasionally as a haul line 
for gear. Otherwise it was always an 11 or 10 mm single line. 
Requiring two ropes in a tree is silly and likely to be a desk arborist or 
non arborist who has never actually been in a tree.

I still have one of my original 120 foot Viking hawser laid nylon ropes from 
the late 60's. We discovered that window blind companies stocked them and 
sold them at a far lower cost than the outdoor store. One was dunked in red 
dye so that we could easily see a red or white (dirty
grey) line once on the hill or crag. They worked well enough except when wet 
or frozen. Then they were a real pain to maul through biners or descenders, 
or even over the shoulder in a classic abseil mode that many of us used 
before Clog came out with a Figure of 8.

"And ya tell the kids of today and they won't believe you."

On Behalf of Dunster and Associates Environmental Consultants Ltd.


Dr. Julian A Dunster R.P.F., R.P.P.., M.C.I.P., ISA Certified Arborist, ASCA 
Registered Consulting Arborist # 378, ISA Tree Risk Assessment Qualified 
Honourary Life Member ISA + PNWISA

North American distributor for Rinntech
www.dunster.ca
www.treelaw.info
www.rinntech.info

On Wed/12/4/2019 2:01 PM, Brad Cadwallader wrote:
My climbing career is well over but I do stay in touch with what is going 
on and for many years co-ordinated the NZ Climbing Regional and National 
competitions.

Therefore I cannot fathom why you would implement the requirement for a 
mandatory two independent climbing system as the norm. Whoever came up with 
this idea clearly is not a climber and does not understand the work an 
arborist performs.

  

[look to the USA as they are ahead of us in this regard as usual]

  

USA does not require two independent climbing systems. The Z133 Industry 
Standards states:

  

8.1.4 While working aloft, the climber shall have available a climbing line 
and at least one other means of being secured on his/her person at all 
times (e.g., an arborist climbing line and a work-positioning lanyard). Two 
means of being secured shall be used when the climber determines that it is 
advantageous.

  

8.1.6The arborist shall be secured at all times while ascending the tree, 
including when using climbing spurs/gaffs. The arborist shall be tied in 
once the work begins and remain tied in until the work is completed and 
he/she has returned to the ground. The arborist shall be secured when 
repositioning the climbing line. When repositioning, the arborist shall 
preload the new tie-in point with his/her full weight before releasing the 
current means of being secured.

  

The ITCC Competition rules state that a climber must lanyard in at each 
work station.

  

Nowhere do the USA standards or ITCC rules state that two independent 
climbing systems shall be used at all times - that's just silly.

  

Brad

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Mike Finch
Sent: 4 December 2019 10:47 a.m.
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?

  

As a daily climbing arborist I whole hearty welcome this 'new' move to 
two

independent climbing systems as the norm. I always find it absurd that 
we

climb on this small single 11mm line at such height on an unrated and

unknown anchor. I cant wait to see the climbing kits and climbing 
styles

evolve; look to the USA as they are ahead of us in this regard as 
usual. I

love the freedom of single rope climbing but there is NO redundancy in

place. If this move can save but one life it is worth it.

  

Regards, Mike Finch

Finch Arboriculture Ltd

  

On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 14:21, Paul Smith <paul@xxxxxx.org.uk> wrote:

  

Hi Jerry, something HSE are currently "looking into" but currently 
there is no industry specific 'SIC' code for registering accidents / 
incidents to arb so they have to search the database on key words, 
very time consuming and not always very accurate (apparently.) Hence 
HSE do have lost of figures / stats but can't categorically say for 
arb and whether accidents have reduced because of LOLER.
Equally number of people working in the industry is very difficult to 
determine, because of the demographic and lots of self-employed, but 
a recent publication indicated circa 21k.
Regards
Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors) Registered Office The 
Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, Gloucestershire, GL10 
3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, Charity 
Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No. 
05180170 Switch to Ecosia   the Search Engine that plants trees!
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Jerry Ross
Sent: 03 December 2019 14:16
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?
OK Paul - I understand these are not regs, but the question still 
stands, are these more stringent best-practice non-regs actually 
going to make a difference to the number of injuries?
It seems to me that the LOLER situation might be informative as to 
whether these measures to actually do what they're supposed to do. You say 
time
will tell.   Well has time told as far as LOLER is concerned?
There's been plenty of time so there should be lots of pre- and 
post-LOLER statistics on the number of accidents. Do you (does the HSE) 
have them?
One would, of course, also have to take into account any increase in 
the number of people working in the industry, so that would be 
another set of statistics.
On 03/12/2019 13:43, Paul Smith wrote:
Hi Jerry,
I guess "time will tell" and, unlike LOLER, this is not the 
introduction
of new HSE regulations but an updating of 'industry best practice' 
(an academic point really.) However, at least now HSE do have better 
informed figures / stats to measure against, unlike previously when LOLER 
came in.
2 rope working has always been, and will remain, a feature of tree
climbing techniques but the expectation going forward is that the 
frequency of such will increase and where it does not the justification 
for such, ie.
using a single-rope, will have to be robustly determined.
Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)
Email: paul@xxxxxx.org.uk
www.trees.org.uk
Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, Charity 
Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No.
05180170
Switch to Ecosia   the Search Engine that plants trees!
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Jerry Ross
Sent: 03 December 2019 13:27
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?
By how much will two rope working actually reduce accidents?  If 
none or
insignificantly, will it be abandoned?
I asked this question twenty odd years ago when LOLER was 
introduced,
whether there would be a review after a few years to determine 
whether and by how many had accidents within the arb industry been 
reduced; and if the answer was none or insignificantly, would the 
regulations be repealed?
Answer came there none.
I wonder what the answer is: there should be plenty of data now. So 
can
anyone tell me by how much HAVE accidents actually been reduced 
(taking into account any change in the number of people working in 
the industry) since the introduction of LOLER?
Of course LOLER was quite successful as a work creation scheme; but 
did
it do what it was supposed to do?
Will two-rope working?
On 03/12/2019 12:42, Steve wrote:
Precisely Paul none!
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Paul Smith
Sent: 03 December 2019 12:38
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?
Hi Steve, simplistically the evidence, as far as HSE are concerned, 
is
here
https://www.trees.org.uk/News-Blog/Latest-News/HSE-Fall-from-Height-I
ncidents-involving-arborists
at least to some extent.
Regards,
Paul
Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)
Email: paul@xxxxxx.org.uk
www.trees.org.uk
Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, 
Charity Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No.
05180170
Switch to Ecosia   the Search Engine that plants trees!
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: 03 December 2019 11:58
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?
Let's be honest this is a totally unjustifiable interference by 
people
that are at best uniformed and at worst have a vested interest in 
additional training modules! Where is the evidence to justify this?
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Paul Smith
Sent: 03 December 2019 11:06
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: RE: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?
Hi Paul, the " 60 million dollar question" just now.
Acknowledging you are asking here, on UKTC, but if you asked the
regulator (the HSE) they would say the 'immediate implications' are 
those they ve been expecting us to have been working to since 2005, 
i.e. 2 rope with 2 independent anchors...in practice the exception rather 
than the rule.
Further information will follow shortly in relation to the amended 
/
updated ICoP, and Technical Guide 1, firstly to industry consultation 
before production and then to be incorporated in updated working 
practices and training / assessment procedures etc.
For now "watch this space", i.e. the AA website, and be thinking 
about
opportunities to move to 2-rope working where it will not hinder nor 
increase the risk of working / tree climbing activities, particularly 
at points of deemed higher risk, e.g. on access / on change-overs / 
using tools etc. Also be thinking about updating risk assessments and 
incorporating the 2-rope hierarchy etc. and associated justifications.
Hoping this helps, at least a little.
Regards,
PAUL
Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)
Email: paul@xxxxxx.org.uk
Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, 
Charity Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No.
05180170
Switch to Ecosia   the Search Engine that plants trees!
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of PC
Sent: 03 December 2019 10:49
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Implementing a Two-Ropes System - HSE Requirement?
Morning all,
Is anybody aware of the immediate implications for climbing 
Arborists
and managers in relation to the web-link below:
https://www.trees.org.uk/News-Blog/Latest-News/Two-rope-working- -a
n-
u
pdate
Thanks,
Paul
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