UKTC Archive

RE: 2 rope access prompting?

Subject: RE: 2 rope access prompting?
From: Alastair Durkin
Date: Jan 06 2020 16:10:41
I know, it’s a nightmare. I meant the building industry has regulation 
through the Building Regs system. 

One of my bugbears is contractors claiming they are 'fully qualified and 
insured' when all they have is CS 31, 38 & 39.

We are currently investigating an offence for undertaking sub-standard work 
to a TPO oak tree - watch this space. 

Alastair


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> 
On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
Sent: 06 January 2020 15:48
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: 2 rope access prompting?

I haven't a clue Alastair. GasSafe hasn't stopped me changing my boiler's 
thermocouple, and I'm inclined to think that legislation is likely to achieve 
the opposite of what we want or need.
Educating the public at large is what's needed, although plenty of the public 
seem to think that writing on the side of a van illustrates qualifications 
and experience. And while some people I come across are keen to ensure that 
they don't end up with a dead arborist at the foot of their tree, others are 
only concerned with the financial bottom line. Perhaps prosecuting a few tree 
owners when their contractors are prosecuted for H&S infringements would 
help, although I can't imagine the Daily Mail failing to howl if that ever 
happened.
As for building regs certificates, not all tree work is on development sites, 
and have you ever seen such things refused for poor tree work standards? I'd 
be delighted if you had.
Bill.
PS Last year I tried to get an LPA to prosecute a tree owner for their 
contractor failing to work to BS3998, they'd made a right pig's ear of a row 
of trees that I pass everyday. You can probably guess how that went....

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 15:29, Alastair Durkin <ADurkin@xxxxxxxxxx.gov.uk>
wrote:

So do we lobby for tighter regulation Bill? Make it an offence to 
undertake tree work without some sort of certification akin to 
GasSafe? One assumes that the building industry has exactly the same 
issues and then some, but the Govt hasn't done anything about that. 
The difference being that much of the time you need to get your 
building Regs certificate at the end of the job, so you can't afford to 
employ total donuts.


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
Sent: 06 January 2020 15:19
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: 2 rope access prompting?

Hi Rupert,
Yes miserable northern git enjoys miserable-ist drams from the even 
more north, dark and frozen bits of Europe; who'd have guessed?
That aside I'm sufficiently detached from climbing trees these days to 
be not paying too much attention, but not so detached that I can't see 
the problems the HSE are creating for our industry. It's only a couple 
of steps from the HSE outlawing the ownership of big trees via the 
back door: "we're banning working at height above 15 metres so this 
means that we're no longer permitting people to grow trees taller than 16 
metres..."
Also the time when I could keep an old rope and harness in the boot 
just so I could have a look at something out of reach or take off a 
minor branch that wasn't worth getting the crew back for, have long 
gone. The kit wouldn't pass the LOLER inspection after a couple of 
years and anyway where's your rescue climber?
I had to complain at the crew last week; I was giving them a hand 
carrying kit from the truck to the job (before I left them to it, 
gotta show a bit of willing) and could only just get one of the bags 
of climbing kit off the ground! Gawdalone knows what he'd got in 
there, but it was a sight more than the rope, couple of krabs and couple of 
slings I used to make do with.
Is all this going to drive work into the hands of the 
fly-by-seat-of-pants outfits. I'd say that in a lot of cases, 
particularly domestic jobs, it's bound to. Will this increase or decrease 
injuries/fatalities? I dunno.
All the best.
Bill.


On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 13:29, Rupert Baker <rupert_baker@xxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

Quite a good prog, that Wisting, Bill - though the title sounds a 
bit like some arcane rural practice - 'Ooh Ah, Jim boy, ave ee been 
wisting down the coombe again?'
Is there a kind of auto- that allows a rope to run through it? Most 
rope-access ones have a finite length - the longest appears to be 
about 20m
- too short for our uses.
I am really not looking forward to all this 2-rope access stuff for 
myself; the possibilities of confusing which is which; the extra 
weight of ropes and friction devices/prussiks; the extra time needed 
to place the systems into the tree whether by throw-line or ladder 
etc all fill me with disquiet, though I'll probably get used to it 
in time; and from a consulting/client point of view, it is 
inevitably going to end up with higher costs for tree work by 
contractors using such systems, to absorb the extra equipment and 
time costs; it will also make pukka tree surgery firms who obey the 
rules less cost effective than ones who ignore them...
Mind you it'll be jam for the equipment suppliers and the trainers ; 
) Atb Rupert

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
Sent: 06 January 2020 10:19
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: 2 rope access prompting?

From outside of the box; Paul, has anybody considered these 
auto-belay devices that climbing walls use nowadays? (
https://headrushtech.com/about/technology.html)
This occurred to me while a watching a Scandi-noir drama on the TV 
over the weekend, wherein someone being lowered down a well had not 
only their access rope but an auto-belay attached to the back of the
harness.
Bill.


On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 08:12, Paul Smith <paul@xxxxxx.org.uk> wrote:

Apologies 'again' David.

Some details of the accidents to which the HSE refer were 
available on the previous weblink to the AA website. The HSE have, 
apparently, prepared more detailed information for a recent AFAG 
meeting and this should come to our attention shortly when we will 
publish on the
website.

Regards


Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)






















Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, 
Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, 
Charity Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company 
No.
05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of dlj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.com
Sent: 02 January 2020 14:31
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: 2 rope access prompting?

Hi again Paul

It says ... "The HSE has consistently argued that, despite the 
good practice guidance that we have been working with for the last 
15 years, the number of accidents in our sector remains 
unacceptably high – indeed, it states that the arboricultural 
sector has the highest accident rate per capita of all UK 
industries. Clearly this is something we would all wish to change."

Can you point me to these specific accident statistics over the 15 
years mentioned please?

David

On 2020-01-02 09:45, Paul Smith wrote:
Maybe, but many systems are being considered / developed / 
reviewed on another forum.


Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)

Arboricultural Association
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, 
Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL, UK Tel +44 (0) 1242 XXXXXX Mob +44 (0)7971 XXXXXX
Email: paul@xxxxxx.org.uk
www.trees.org.uk





















Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, 
Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, 
Charity Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd
Company No.
05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Sean Davies
Sent: 02 January 2020 09:43
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: 2 rope access prompting?

Are we just talking an auto belay? or something more complex?

Sean Davies

Arboreal officer

Neighbourhood Services

T: 01623 XXXXXX

E: sdavies@xxxxxxxxxx.gov.uk



Mansfield District Council

Hermitage Lane Depot,

Maunside,

Mansfield,

Nottingham.

NG18 5GU



-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Paul Smith
Sent: 02 January 2020 09:35
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: DMARC violation -RE: 2 rope access prompting?

Hi David, the latter, i.e. specific accidents, see 
https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=
ht
tp
s%
3a%2f%2fwww.trees.org.uk%2fHelp%2dAdvice%2fPublic%2fHSE%2dDecisi
on
%2
do
n%2dTwo%2dRope%2dWorking&umid=8c731305-99cd-4958-af52-b472912eea
8d
&a
ut
h=4be54ad6eb25a559550d8aaef741acb68187dbb5-411613f6d57e6723e2010
bc
24
18
7ecd5f023b316

Regards

Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)




















Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse, 
Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377, 
Charity Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd
Company No.
05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of 
dlj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.com
Sent: 31 December 2019 13:17
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: 2 rope access prompting?

Just saw a posting about this.......

"This is an interesting time in the world of Arboriculture. With 
the HSE now insistent on the use of two-rope working, industry 
professionals are working hard to devise systems to maintain 
compliance."

Does anybody know if this is just a development out of 
idealogical principle, or has it been provoked by specific 
accidents or broader accident statistics ?

David




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