UKTC Archive

Re: 2 rope access prompting?

Subject: Re: 2 rope access prompting?
From: Bill Anderson
Date: Jan 06 2020 21:06:58
The trees to which I referred above Paul, are in a Conservation Area, I
went to the trouble of checking precisely what work had been applied for.
The spec was as vague as vague could be, and the S211 Notice was clearly
written by the householder. The Planning Officer had raised no objections
and no informative comments were made at all. This LPA doesn't employ a TO
so I really couldn't see that there was a cat-in-hell's chance of
a successful prosecution. I suspect the technician who got the job of
replying to my complaint knew this and so was obliged to dismiss my
perfectly reasonable observations.
I suspect that there are good reasons for licensing the construction
industry, but short of banning B&Q from selling DIY guys a bag of cement I
don't see how it will ever work. And Surveyors could make more of an effort
to check building standards when they do their valuations for property
sales as well. I'd like to see some of them getting down and dirty with
picks and shovels, and then ending up in Court when some half-ar5ed,
jerry-built extension starts to subside. It'd make a change from chopping
trees down to cure the cr4p building...
Er sorry; am I venting?
Happy New Year.
Bill.

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 16:58, Paul Smith <paul@xxxxxx.org.uk> wrote:

I've always seen the building regs as more akin to the TPO system, i.e.
controlling workmanship standards and outcomes, but only to protected trees
of course.

In terms of contractors H&S etc. compliance standards the building
industry is currently lobbying for a licensing scheme (see
https://nhic.org.uk/2018/07/the-case-for-licensing-the-uk-construction-industry/
) which, if it ever gets approval, may pave the way for a tree surgery
industry equivalent, e.g. Approved Contractor.

Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)





















Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish,
Stonehouse, Gloucestershire, GL10 3DL
Arboricultural Association Ltd
Company No. 4070377, Charity Number 1083845
Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd Company No. 05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Alastair Durkin
Sent: 06 January 2020 16:10
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: 2 rope access prompting?

I know, it’s a nightmare. I meant the building industry has regulation
through the Building Regs system.

One of my bugbears is contractors claiming they are 'fully qualified and
insured' when all they have is CS 31, 38 & 39.

We are currently investigating an offence for undertaking sub-standard
work to a TPO oak tree - watch this space.

Alastair


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
Sent: 06 January 2020 15:48
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: 2 rope access prompting?

I haven't a clue Alastair. GasSafe hasn't stopped me changing my boiler's
thermocouple, and I'm inclined to think that legislation is likely to
achieve the opposite of what we want or need.
Educating the public at large is what's needed, although plenty of the
public seem to think that writing on the side of a van illustrates
qualifications and experience. And while some people I come across are keen
to ensure that they don't end up with a dead arborist at the foot of their
tree, others are only concerned with the financial bottom line. Perhaps
prosecuting a few tree owners when their contractors are prosecuted for H&S
infringements would help, although I can't imagine the Daily Mail failing
to howl if that ever happened.
As for building regs certificates, not all tree work is on development
sites, and have you ever seen such things refused for poor tree work
standards? I'd be delighted if you had.
Bill.
PS Last year I tried to get an LPA to prosecute a tree owner for their
contractor failing to work to BS3998, they'd made a right pig's ear of a
row of trees that I pass everyday. You can probably guess how that went....

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 15:29, Alastair Durkin <ADurkin@xxxxxxxxxx.gov.uk>
wrote:

So do we lobby for tighter regulation Bill? Make it an offence to
undertake tree work without some sort of certification akin to
GasSafe? One assumes that the building industry has exactly the same
issues and then some, but the Govt hasn't done anything about that.
The difference being that much of the time you need to get your
building Regs certificate at the end of the job, so you can't afford to
employ total donuts.


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
Sent: 06 January 2020 15:19
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: 2 rope access prompting?

Hi Rupert,
Yes miserable northern git enjoys miserable-ist drams from the even
more north, dark and frozen bits of Europe; who'd have guessed?
That aside I'm sufficiently detached from climbing trees these days to
be not paying too much attention, but not so detached that I can't see
the problems the HSE are creating for our industry. It's only a couple
of steps from the HSE outlawing the ownership of big trees via the
back door: "we're banning working at height above 15 metres so this
means that we're no longer permitting people to grow trees taller than
16 metres..."
Also the time when I could keep an old rope and harness in the boot
just so I could have a look at something out of reach or take off a
minor branch that wasn't worth getting the crew back for, have long
gone. The kit wouldn't pass the LOLER inspection after a couple of
years and anyway where's your rescue climber?
I had to complain at the crew last week; I was giving them a hand
carrying kit from the truck to the job (before I left them to it,
gotta show a bit of willing) and could only just get one of the bags
of climbing kit off the ground! Gawdalone knows what he'd got in
there, but it was a sight more than the rope, couple of krabs and couple
of slings I used to make do with.
Is all this going to drive work into the hands of the
fly-by-seat-of-pants outfits. I'd say that in a lot of cases,
particularly domestic jobs, it's bound to. Will this increase or
decrease injuries/fatalities? I dunno.
All the best.
Bill.


On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 13:29, Rupert Baker <rupert_baker@xxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

Quite a good prog, that Wisting, Bill - though the title sounds a
bit like some arcane rural practice - 'Ooh Ah, Jim boy, ave ee been
wisting down the coombe again?'
Is there a kind of auto- that allows a rope to run through it? Most
rope-access ones have a finite length - the longest appears to be
about 20m
- too short for our uses.
I am really not looking forward to all this 2-rope access stuff for
myself; the possibilities of confusing which is which; the extra
weight of ropes and friction devices/prussiks; the extra time needed
to place the systems into the tree whether by throw-line or ladder
etc all fill me with disquiet, though I'll probably get used to it
in time; and from a consulting/client point of view, it is
inevitably going to end up with higher costs for tree work by
contractors using such systems, to absorb the extra equipment and
time costs; it will also make pukka tree surgery firms who obey the
rules less cost effective than ones who ignore them...
Mind you it'll be jam for the equipment suppliers and the trainers ;
) Atb Rupert

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
Sent: 06 January 2020 10:19
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: 2 rope access prompting?

From outside of the box; Paul, has anybody considered these
auto-belay devices that climbing walls use nowadays? (
https://headrushtech.com/about/technology.html)
This occurred to me while a watching a Scandi-noir drama on the TV
over the weekend, wherein someone being lowered down a well had not
only their access rope but an auto-belay attached to the back of the
harness.
Bill.


On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 08:12, Paul Smith <paul@xxxxxx.org.uk> wrote:

Apologies 'again' David.

Some details of the accidents to which the HSE refer were
available on the previous weblink to the AA website. The HSE have,
apparently, prepared more detailed information for a recent AFAG
meeting and this should come to our attention shortly when we will
publish on the
website.

Regards


Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)






















Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse,
Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377,
Charity Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd
Company No.
05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of dlj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.com
Sent: 02 January 2020 14:31
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: 2 rope access prompting?

Hi again Paul

It says ... "The HSE has consistently argued that, despite the
good practice guidance that we have been working with for the last
15 years, the number of accidents in our sector remains
unacceptably high – indeed, it states that the arboricultural
sector has the highest accident rate per capita of all UK
industries. Clearly this is something we would all wish to change."

Can you point me to these specific accident statistics over the 15
years mentioned please?

David

On 2020-01-02 09:45, Paul Smith wrote:
Maybe, but many systems are being considered / developed /
reviewed on another forum.


Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)

Arboricultural Association
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse,
Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL, UK Tel +44 (0) 1242 XXXXXX Mob +44 (0)7971 XXXXXX
Email: paul@xxxxxx.org.uk
www.trees.org.uk





















Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse,
Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377,
Charity Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd
Company No.
05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Sean Davies
Sent: 02 January 2020 09:43
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: 2 rope access prompting?

Are we just talking an auto belay? or something more complex?

Sean Davies

Arboreal officer

Neighbourhood Services

T: 01623 XXXXXX

E: sdavies@xxxxxxxxxx.gov.uk



Mansfield District Council

Hermitage Lane Depot,

Maunside,

Mansfield,

Nottingham.

NG18 5GU



-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of Paul Smith
Sent: 02 January 2020 09:35
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: DMARC violation -RE: 2 rope access prompting?

Hi David, the latter, i.e. specific accidents, see
https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=
ht
tp
s%
3a%2f%2fwww.trees.org.uk%2fHelp%2dAdvice%2fPublic%2fHSE%2dDecisi
on
%2
do
n%2dTwo%2dRope%2dWorking&umid=8c731305-99cd-4958-af52-b472912eea
8d
&a
ut
h=4be54ad6eb25a559550d8aaef741acb68187dbb5-411613f6d57e6723e2010
bc
24
18
7ecd5f023b316

Regards

Paul Smith
Technical Officer &
Accreditation Schemes Manager (Contractors)




















Registered Office
The Malthouse, Stroud Green, Standish, Stonehouse,
Gloucestershire,
GL10 3DL Arboricultural Association Ltd Company No. 4070377,
Charity Number 1083845 Arboricultural Association Trading Ltd
Company No.
05180170

Switch to Ecosia – the Search Engine that plants trees!

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> On Behalf Of
dlj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.com
Sent: 31 December 2019 13:17
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: 2 rope access prompting?

Just saw a posting about this.......

"This is an interesting time in the world of Arboriculture. With
the HSE now insistent on the use of two-rope working, industry
professionals are working hard to devise systems to maintain
compliance."

Does anybody know if this is just a development out of
idealogical principle, or has it been provoked by specific
accidents or broader accident statistics ?

David




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