UKTC Archive

Re: [EXTERNAL] Tree failure potential assessment study WAS Civil cases for nuisance or damage to property

Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Tree failure potential assessment study WAS Civil cases for nuisance or damage to property
From: Wayne Tyson
Date: Jan 14 2020 23:33:25
Perhaps, Dave, you misunderstood. My remark was not aimed at any particular
person, only a category--that, by the way, covers every "expert,"
regardless of what field the individual might be out standing in. If you
read my remarks carefully, I hope you will find that this is clearly so.
Henry Wheeler Shaw put it this way: "The worst kind of ignerance ain't so
much not knowin' as 'tis knowin' so much that ain't so."

Apparently I was wrong, but I presumed that every tree professional would
agree with the statement, since (I presumed they would all believe)  none
of us knows everything. As Margaret Mead once put it: "The most important
thing to know is what you don't know."

So my statement was not aimed at those, while perhaps possessing a lot of
knowledge in a particular field, do not consider themselves omniscient (the
fools to which I was referring), but continuing scholars advancing
knowledge and exchanging ideas through forums such as this one. I'm
certain, Dave, that you know many things that I do not. I would hope that
we could continue to discuss principles without interpreting each others
remarks as a personal offense, and thus gain in the exchange.

Wayne

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:14 PM oldoaktree@xxxxxxxxx.net <
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> wrote:

Nicely shot from the hip there Wayne, but you rub a lot of peoples noses
in the dirt there.

Talk like "show me an expert and I'll show you a fool" doesn't really gell
very well with any of us who might have some expertise in certain areas.

If you want to make a criticism, then please make it clear, specific and
recognisable. Scattergun approaches do not help your position.

Ta

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 14 January 2020 20:30
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Tree failure potential assessment study WAS Civil
cases for nuisance or damage to property

Then "arbs" have a long way to go. "They" haven't scratched the surface of
science, and if by "judgment" you mean "experience," they are settling for
far too little. There are WAGs and SWAGs, but show me some DATA! That is,
*discipline*! Where are the actual studies that can back up "judgment?" I
can't find 'em. The tree professions *can* get better and better, if the
individuals in it want to. Show me an "expert" and I'll show you a fool. At
the very least, the profession can move from "imminent" to recognizing
unstoppable trends.

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 11:42 AM Jim Quaife <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

Nice idea Wayne, but no chance of enactment. By and large root systems
are over-designed in nature, and root severance is a matter of
judgement and not law.  BS5837 advocates the removal of perhaps
two-thirds of a tree's root system. There are any number of instances
where roots have been severed to an extent that raises eyebrows and
yet the tree doesn't miss a beat.
Of course there are converse examples, but I have been in situations
where a single root is deemed to be important and when one looks at
what else is sustaining the tree, that notion is frankly ridiculous.
Like everything else to do with trees, root severance is a matter of
judgement and justification.  This is an arb's stock in trade!
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 14 January 2020 18:38
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Tree failure potential assessment study WAS
Civil cases for nuisance or damage to property

The main "practical" point is that there should be a law prohibiting
the severance of tree roots. Of course, we all know that's not going
to happen, but it should be done with full knowledge of the
consequences, and under permit that requires real data on the
potential consequences (including
liability) derived from sound scientific procedures (e.g., tritium
tracing or approved equal [For the record, I have not performed this
procedure, only read about it.]). What is not well understood is the
complex nature of the radial root system development in all directions
from the stem/trunk in relation to tree health and structural
stability. What really provides resistance to toppling/uprooting is
the fine-root matrix that extends to and beyond the "drip-line" of the
tree and whether or not meristematic tissue is present to facilitate
"recovery" of the severed roots, which is limited to fine roots.
Anchoring roots tend, in many if not most species, to lack such
tissue, and their severance kills the attached finer roots that
actually provide the resistance. Big roots lacking the capacity to
recover do not, by themselves, provide much resistance--root "pruners,"
listen up! Loss of resistance is essentially permanent, and the load
continues to increase as the tree grows. At the very least, such a
practice does not increase resistance (root-system "strength").

Here is a link of relevance I recently discovered by one of our (US)
best arborists. It should be noted that while it may be an absurdly
extreme case, tree failure potential can be significantly induced by far
less.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFqU2kBlxkI

WT

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 4:33 AM Harrison, Sean <
Sean.Harrison@xxxxxxxxxxx.gov.uk> wrote:

Nice one Wayne;
I shall use that next time an insurance company wants a 200 year old
tree removed because roots are damaging the foundations of a 70 year
old
house.
Sean



-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 11 January 2020 22:40
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Tree failure potential assessment study WAS
Civil cases for nuisance or damage to property

Warning: email from outside of MVDC - if in any doubt do not open
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or
attachments, or carry out requested actions
________________________________


 Mike Charkow,

Somewhat tongue-in-cheek but (contrarily and seriously), I might
suggest that the construction of the fence and slab might have
caused damage and
to
the root system and compromised its integrity, possibly compromising
the tree's well-being and shortening the tree's life, not to mention
weakening
the tree's ability to support itself constitutionally and
physically, as well as the slab depriving the root system of air and
water, thus causing the root system to favor the part of the soil
profile nearest the
surface,
i.e., the slab as well as possible or probable damage to the root
system
by
the digging of fencepost pits, not to mention the installation of
underground facilities such as foundations, utility facilities, etc.

On the other hand, the planting of a large-growing tree in a
location close to a property line by someone who knew or should have
known that it would encroach upon an adjacent property might also be
questioned. If the tree was natural, both owner and neighbor might
be guilty (as if there
were
any justice for Nature's voiceless) of  compromising the tree's
rights to the quiet enjoyment of its home and sustenance, as well as
expectations
of
freedom from injury.

I'll be interested to know (and get links to) any cases and
judgments. Do tree's have standing?

Wayne



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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/




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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/