UKTC Archive

RE: [EXTERNAL] Tree failure potential assessment study WAS Civil cases for nuisance or damage to property

Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Tree failure potential assessment study WAS Civil cases for nuisance or damage to property
From: oldoaktree@xxxxxxxxx.net
Date: Jan 15 2020 00:07:12
Wayne, I appreciate what you say, and I am very much interested in the 
mechanics of argument. 

I imagine that your 'expert' dismissal is down to the Dunning-Kruger effect 
where people of little knowledge on a subject think themselves as massive 
experts because they talk about it a lot.

(on the other hand, people being immensely knowledgeable, tend to avoid 
giving comment because they know of the lack of DATA to ensure a reliable 
answer).

We are beginning to get well Batman philosophical here, but my point would be 
that on a moderately technical and ethical forum such as this, we need to 
post fairly direct comments and make our questions or criticisms very 
pointed. 

Precise, reasoned and easily repliable are the way to go.

Cheers

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> 
On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 14 January 2020 23:33
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Tree failure potential assessment study WAS Civil 
cases for nuisance or damage to property

Perhaps, Dave, you misunderstood. My remark was not aimed at any particular 
person, only a category--that, by the way, covers every "expert,"
regardless of what field the individual might be out standing in. If you read 
my remarks carefully, I hope you will find that this is clearly so.
Henry Wheeler Shaw put it this way: "The worst kind of ignerance ain't so 
much not knowin' as 'tis knowin' so much that ain't so."

Apparently I was wrong, but I presumed that every tree professional would 
agree with the statement, since (I presumed they would all believe)  none of 
us knows everything. As Margaret Mead once put it: "The most important thing 
to know is what you don't know."

So my statement was not aimed at those, while perhaps possessing a lot of 
knowledge in a particular field, do not consider themselves omniscient (the 
fools to which I was referring), but continuing scholars advancing knowledge 
and exchanging ideas through forums such as this one. I'm certain, Dave, that 
you know many things that I do not. I would hope that we could continue to 
discuss principles without interpreting each others remarks as a personal 
offense, and thus gain in the exchange.

Wayne

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:14 PM oldoaktree@xxxxxxxxx.net < 
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> wrote:

Nicely shot from the hip there Wayne, but you rub a lot of peoples 
noses in the dirt there.

Talk like "show me an expert and I'll show you a fool" doesn't really 
gell very well with any of us who might have some expertise in certain 
areas.

If you want to make a criticism, then please make it clear, specific 
and recognisable. Scattergun approaches do not help your position.

Ta

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 14 January 2020 20:30
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Tree failure potential assessment study WAS 
Civil cases for nuisance or damage to property

Then "arbs" have a long way to go. "They" haven't scratched the 
surface of science, and if by "judgment" you mean "experience," they 
are settling for far too little. There are WAGs and SWAGs, but show me 
some DATA! That is, *discipline*! Where are the actual studies that 
can back up "judgment?" I can't find 'em. The tree professions *can* 
get better and better, if the individuals in it want to. Show me an 
"expert" and I'll show you a fool. At the very least, the profession 
can move from "imminent" to recognizing unstoppable trends.

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 11:42 AM Jim Quaife 
<jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

Nice idea Wayne, but no chance of enactment. By and large root 
systems are over-designed in nature, and root severance is a matter 
of judgement and not law.  BS5837 advocates the removal of perhaps 
two-thirds of a tree's root system. There are any number of 
instances where roots have been severed to an extent that raises 
eyebrows and yet the tree doesn't miss a beat.
Of course there are converse examples, but I have been in situations 
where a single root is deemed to be important and when one looks at 
what else is sustaining the tree, that notion is frankly ridiculous.
Like everything else to do with trees, root severance is a matter of 
judgement and justification.  This is an arb's stock in trade!
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 14 January 2020 18:38
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Tree failure potential assessment study WAS 
Civil cases for nuisance or damage to property

The main "practical" point is that there should be a law prohibiting 
the severance of tree roots. Of course, we all know that's not going 
to happen, but it should be done with full knowledge of the 
consequences, and under permit that requires real data on the 
potential consequences (including
liability) derived from sound scientific procedures (e.g., tritium 
tracing or approved equal [For the record, I have not performed this 
procedure, only read about it.]). What is not well understood is the 
complex nature of the radial root system development in all 
directions from the stem/trunk in relation to tree health and 
structural stability. What really provides resistance to 
toppling/uprooting is the fine-root matrix that extends to and 
beyond the "drip-line" of the tree and whether or not meristematic 
tissue is present to facilitate "recovery" of the severed roots, which is 
limited to fine roots.
Anchoring roots tend, in many if not most species, to lack such 
tissue, and their severance kills the attached finer roots that 
actually provide the resistance. Big roots lacking the capacity to
recover do not, by themselves, provide much resistance--root "pruners,"
listen up! Loss of resistance is essentially permanent, and the load 
continues to increase as the tree grows. At the very least, such a 
practice does not increase resistance (root-system "strength").

Here is a link of relevance I recently discovered by one of our (US) 
best arborists. It should be noted that while it may be an absurdly 
extreme case, tree failure potential can be significantly induced by 
far
less.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFqU2kBlxkI

WT

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 4:33 AM Harrison, Sean < 
Sean.Harrison@xxxxxxxxxxx.gov.uk> wrote:

Nice one Wayne;
I shall use that next time an insurance company wants a 200 year 
old tree removed because roots are damaging the foundations of a 
70 year old
house.
Sean



-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson
Sent: 11 January 2020 22:40
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Tree failure potential assessment study WAS 
Civil cases for nuisance or damage to property

Warning: email from outside of MVDC - if in any doubt do not open 
links
or
attachments, or carry out requested actions
________________________________


 Mike Charkow,

Somewhat tongue-in-cheek but (contrarily and seriously), I might 
suggest that the construction of the fence and slab might have 
caused damage and
to
the root system and compromised its integrity, possibly 
compromising the tree's well-being and shortening the tree's life, 
not to mention
weakening
the tree's ability to support itself constitutionally and 
physically, as well as the slab depriving the root system of air 
and water, thus causing the root system to favor the part of the 
soil profile nearest the
surface,
i.e., the slab as well as possible or probable damage to the root 
system
by
the digging of fencepost pits, not to mention the installation of 
underground facilities such as foundations, utility facilities, etc.

On the other hand, the planting of a large-growing tree in a 
location close to a property line by someone who knew or should 
have known that it would encroach upon an adjacent property might 
also be questioned. If the tree was natural, both owner and 
neighbor might be guilty (as if there
were
any justice for Nature's voiceless) of  compromising the tree's 
rights to the quiet enjoyment of its home and sustenance, as well 
as expectations
of
freedom from injury.

I'll be interested to know (and get links to) any cases and 
judgments. Do tree's have standing?

Wayne



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The UKTC is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
http://www.boskytrees.co.uk/