UKTC Archive

Re: VETERAN TREES Re: Tree Risk Management - Taking the defect out of it

Subject: Re: VETERAN TREES Re: Tree Risk Management - Taking the defect out of it
From: Greenwood Arboriculture Ltd
Date: Feb 06 2020 16:39:28
Hi Bill,

No I think this new book is by a french speaking Canadian, I will try and
find out the title. I think I'm familiar with Pierre Rimbault's
illustrations on tree morphology. I did think the same thing about the
French love of 'pollarding'!

Kind regards,

*Oliver Tong **ND Arb TechArborA*
Principal Consultant

T: 01708 XXX XXX
M: 07795 XXX XXX
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W: www.greenwoodarboriculture.co.uk
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/olivertong81/>
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 | Registered Office: 37 Essex Gardens, Hornchurch, Greater London, RM11
3EJ |  | VAT No. GB328956949

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On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 16:16, Bill Anderson <anderson.arb.original@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

That'll be Pierre Rimbault won't it? (I think that's his name) Nev Fay's
had him over at least once, not sure if he's been recently. Going on the
average French town's routine tree butchery, it's sort of ironic that a
bloke with a great appreciation of how trees grow and who's researched the
topic is French.....
Bill.


On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 15:35, Greenwood Arboriculture Ltd <
oliver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk> wrote:

If anyone is familiar with the subject of tree architecture (not easy if
you can't read french it seems), it covers this very subject and
attempts to categorise trees according to their life stage and type. It
is
fascinating and a particularly useful tool when assessing old trees. I
recently attended the Ancient Tree Forum delivered by Tom Joye and it
opened up a whole area of tree knowledge I was fairly ignorant of. There
is
a book 'the tree architecture bible' I can't recall the title, but it is
being translated to english as we speak and is due to be published soon,
which might offer some clarity on the subject.

Kind regards,

*Oliver Tong **ND Arb TechArborA*
Principal Consultant

T: 01708 XXX XXX
M: 07795 XXX XXX
E: oliver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk
W: www.greenwoodarboriculture.co.uk
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/olivertong81/>
Greenwood Arboriculture Ltd | Registered in England and Wales No.
10749899
 | Registered Office: 37 Essex Gardens, Hornchurch, Greater London, RM11
3EJ |  | VAT No. GB328956949

This email (including any attachments) is intended only for the
recipient(s) named above. It may contain confidential or privileged
information and should not be read, copied or otherwise used by any other
person unless express permission is given by Greenwood Arboriculture Ltd.
If you are not a named recipient, please contact Greenwood Arboriculture
Ltd and delete the email from your inbox. It is the recipient's
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On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 13:24, Julian Morris <jamorris@xxxxx.com> wrote:

I agree entirely about clarity of terms. As Quintilian so beautifully
put
it centuries ago -

“We should not write so that it is possible for the reader to
understand
us, but so that it is impossible for him to misunderstand us."

BS5837 is not blameless, however. Mike has mentoned that in it the
categorisation is about quality, which includes conservation value. And
there's a minor problem, before wr all spoke of habitat and
biodiversity
conservatio was the word that covered the preservation of these things.
Tehre's therefore a legitimate argument that BS5837 categorisation
should
reflect habitat i.e. the deadwood, beetles, bryophytes etc.  BS8596
doenst
really help because it adds that BS5837 categoriswtions should reflect
bat
potential (not that anyone bothers their @&$£). And I would suggest
that
the Ancielt Tree Forum's guidance that RPAs should be ncreased to 15x
DBH
is based on preserving habitat for as long as possible. After all, the
hukered down ancient tree or battered veteran usually provides a
fraction
of the amenity of an equivalent non-ancient/veteran but the latter get
boosted to cat A.

Julian A. Morris - Professional Tree Services
jamtrees.co.uk  and  highhedgesscotland.com
0778 XXX XXXX - 0141 XXX XXXX


Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2020 at 12:50 PM
From: "Michael Richardson" <richardsontreecare@xxxxxx.com>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: VETERAN TREES Re: Tree Risk Management - Taking the
defect
out of it

That is quite good Mike.  A very reasonable approach.

I note that many arborists do not distinguish between biological
health
and
structural integrity.  Again semantics are important.

I have been dealing with the largest English Oak I have ever seen in
eastern Canada.  It is growing extremely well but is full of cracks
and
decay.  The large green canopy is incredible and causes many to
overlook
the structurally compromised trunk.

Michael Richardson B.Sc.F., BCMA
Ontario MTCU Qualified Arborist
Richardson Tree Care
Richardsontreecare.ca
613-475-2877
800-769-9183

  <http://www.richardsontreecare.ca/images/Tree_Doc_logo_email.png>



On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:41 AM AV Arboriculture <mike@xxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

This debate just shows why these terms are not that useful and
simply
confuse matters.  Better to be clear and distinctive about why a
tree
is
worth preserving (eg it provides good ecological habitat).  The
BS5839
distinctions lead the surveyor to be clear about the tree's
qualities
(ie
arboricultural/landscape/cultural & conservation).

Regards,

Mike Charkow
Principal Arboriculturist
______________________
Arbor Vitae Arboriculture Ltd

Planning surveys, Tree inspections, Bats in trees inspections,
Arboricultural consultancy, Soil de-compaction, Root Investigation,
Woodland Management.

[ mailto:info@xxxxxxx.co.uk | info@xxxxxxx.co.uk ]
[ https://avtree.co.uk/ | www.avtree.co.uk ]
07917XXXXXX
Company Registration Number: SC413171

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Moya" <tim.moya@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
To: "uktc" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Thursday, 6 February, 2020 12:26:03
Subject: RE: VETERAN TREES Re: Tree Risk Management - Taking the
defect
out of it

Ancient trees are those which achieve exceptional longevity for the
species. Veteran trees are those which display the characteristics
of
ancient trees.
That's 22 words
Tim Moya


-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
Sent: 06 February 2020 12:05
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: VETERAN TREES Re: Tree Risk Management - Taking the
defect
out of it

As Alex Shigo said:I believe if a person cannot define a term in 25
words
or less, they should not use it because they probably do not
understand it.

Michael Richardson B.Sc.F., BCMA
Ontario MTCU Qualified Arborist
Richardson Tree Care
Richardsontreecare.ca
613-475-2877
800-769-9183

  <http://www.richardsontreecare.ca/images/Tree_Doc_logo_email.png




On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 6:52 AM Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

A limber pine could be thought of as a "runt" throughout its
life.
No
need to split hairs, particularly general, semantic ones. That's
why
assessments need to be individual, and based on facts, not on
vague
labels of questionable foundation. But the quest for "accurate"
terms
is a fascinating one. Clarity in the language is sometimes
elusive.
And sometimes, mere terminology may not be up to the task.
Meaningless
terms might simply be tossed into the dustbin.

Wayne

On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 3:33 AM Ben Oates <b.oates@xxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

Hi Tom,

Good to hear from you.

I mentioned in my previous email that it is all in the word
which
originates from the Latin vetus meaning old.

In my mind, it follows then, therefore, that a tree which is
not
vetus, old or reached full maturity is not a veteran in the
true
sense of the
word
unless one is anthopomorphasising the term for trees, which is
what
I disagree with, i.e. calling young trees with ecological
features
veterans.

The value of veteran trees is in part to do with the
irreplaceable
habitats that form over a long time. The younger the tree, the
easier it may be to replace the habitat because it hasn't taken
hundreds of years
to
form.

A non-mature tree with important ecological features might be a
'runt' or 'sickly tree' and likely to merit the BS 5837:2012
category of C or U
(low
value). Whereas a veteran, in the true sense of the word, would
likely be an A (high value) category because it truly has
acquired
great age and
all
those things that flow with it along the passage of time.

Young sickly, runts often have features similar to but not on a
comparable
scale with those found on the same species but of great age and
those
young
runts might well be as important ecologically but on the
balance
of
probabilities sickly trees are unlikely to achieve the great
age
of
a
true
veteran.

To me, the most significant feature of trees is their ability
to
achieve great age and all that flows from it is what makes true
veterans so precious.

The implication of naming young runts as veterans undermines
the
values
we
place on true veterans.

Based on my reasoning I do not make a distinction between
veteran
and ancient, to me the word means the same thing, old, and is
regardless of habitat features.

I am open minded and not stuck in my ways but this is where I
stand
for the time being.

Best regards,

Ben Oates

________________________________
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
on behalf of Tom Thompson <admin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
Sent: 06 February 2020 00:33
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: VETERAN TREES Re: Tree Risk Management - Taking
the
defect out of it

Ben

Are trees not classified as veterans due to their defects,
sorry
features,
so they do not have to be old.

Ancient trees are old.  I thought that this was the
distinction.

Sincerely Tom

I S Tom Thompson (known as Tom) BSc (Hons) Arb, MSc eFor,
MArborA

Principal Arboricultural Consultant
Arbor Cultural Ltd

36 Central Avenue, West Molesey, Surrey, KT8 2QZ

T   0333 XXX XXXX
M  07899 XXXXXX
E   Admin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk
W  [X] www.arbor-cultural.co.uk<
http://www.arbor-cultural.co.uk>




On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 at 17:36, Ben Oates <b.oates@xxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

Kevin Slezacek wrote: "I'm seeing an increasing number of
cases
where trees with simple storm damage are being classed as
veterans
and using
this
to object to planning applications."


I have also experienced an LPA classing an early mature sweet
chestnut (less than 1m dbh) with woodpecker holes and die
back,
likely due to on-site evidence of old root damage, as a
veteran
and invoking the
NPPF.


Don't get me wrong, I love veteran trees.



I agree that a middle aged soldier or younger having seen
active
service
makes them a veteran but I do not agree with
anthropomorphising
the
term
for trees, especially for the purposes of invoking the NPPF.



For a tree to be a veteran, in my mind's eye, it must have
great
age.



The term ‘veteran’, from the Latin vetus, means ‘old’.



So I say a veteran tree is one that has considerably outlived
the
typical
life expectancy of the species found in a similar environment
regardless
of
size and habitat potential etc.


Authoritative written guidance is helpful but should be
backed
up
with knowledge.

Ben Oates



________________________________
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
on behalf of Kevin Slezacek <KevinSlezacek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: 05 February 2020 16:33
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Tree Risk Management - Taking the defect out of
it

Please lets not start introducing terms like early veteran or
semi
ancient. I'm seeing an increasing number of cases where trees
with
simple
storm damage are being classed as veterans and using this to
object to planning applications. I appreciate fully the
benefit
of
"true"
veterans
and also understand how many mature trees can have certain
characteristics
that may have benefit to other organisms but I think arbs
know
a
proper veteran when we see one and Id like to see some more
distinct
recognised
terms rather than woolly definitions. When NPPF specifically
mentions veterans (quite rightly) I don’t think it meant
every
mature tree with
a
woodpecker hole or bit of deadwood! Semi Ancient - what would
define
that!

Kind regards,

Kevin Slezacek



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