UKTC Archive

RE: Subsidence where foundations less than 300mm deep

Subject: RE: Subsidence where foundations less than 300mm deep
From: Liam McKarry
Date: Sep 09 2020 07:14:28
I'm not defending the insurance industry but I think that we as 
arboriculturists do get a bit exercised about this subsidence issue and take 
it very personally.

All I'm saying is that if trees are the cause of the damage and that it can 
be demonstrated that this is the case then why do so many arboriculturists 
find it difficult to be objective about it?

Why, when presented with evidence that shows shrinkable clay soils, cyclical 
patterns of movement and root id do we still say that the building is 
defective despite an engineer or surveyor saying it's the trees causing the 
damage? This is something I find particularly annoying as we seem to want to 
disregard the advice/expertise of another industry because it doesn't sit 
well with our like of trees. It's almost like we think that these people go 
out with some kind of tree hating agenda.

'...As far as I can see if my tree causes my house to subside, the only 
person to blame is the one that designed the foundations. Of course that 
person might have said these foundations are OK but don't let your Mulberry 
tree 5 metres away ever get to be more than 6 metres tall with a commensurate 
spread, but as far as I'm aware foundation-designers rarely say that...' 
Foundation depth and design is largely controlled by building control and 
will need to comply with the recommendations at that moment in time - the 
design will take into account the Mulberry tree 5 metres away (although I'm 
pretty sure most BC officers would tell the builder to get rid of the tree 
unless it's TPOd).

All I'm saying is that we should not get hung up on the inadequate foundation 
argument because as far as I can remember it has never successfully been used 
to defend against an application to fell a TPO tree causing subs or a cost 
claim against a local authority - dwelling on it delays the time taken to 
deal with the application/claim and ultimately the person who suffers is the 
person with the damaged house


Regards

Liam McKarry
Arboricultural Officer (Planning)
Colchester Borough Council
Rowan House
33 Sheepen Road
Colchester
CO3 3WG
01206 XXXXXX



-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> 
On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
Sent: 08 September 2020 20:22
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Subsidence where foundations less than 300mm deep

This message originated Externally. Do not click links or open attachments 
unless you recognise the sender, were expecting it and know that the content 
is safe.

I don't think Law comes into it Liam. It's insurance industry practice, 
unless there's a dispute over who's tree it is that causes the problem and 
who should have done something to prevent it. As far as I can see if my tree 
causes my house to subside, the only person to blame is the one that designed 
the foundations. Of course that person might have said these foundations are 
OK but don't let your Mulberry tree 5 metres away ever get to be more than 6 
metres tall with a commensurate spread, but as far as I'm aware 
foundation-designers rarely say that. I'd agree entirely that growing a dirty 
great Oak tree hard against a wall ought to be an obvious no-no, but building 
something without foundations and then blaming a random nearby tree is just 
illogical.

And off-hand I bet the insurance industry spends more of our premiums on 
keeping their execs in Porsches and BMWs than it does on subsidence payouts!

Bill.


On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 19:47, Liam McKarry <Liam.McKarry@xxxxxxxxxxx.gov.uk>
wrote:

Sorry Jerry I don’t agree - the cost of increased numbers of insurance
claims is met by premium prices going up; it’s a cost met by customers.

Liam McKarry
Arboricultural Officer (Planning)
01206 XXXXXX
________________________________
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
on behalf of Jerry Ross <trees@xxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 7:34:27 PM
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Subsidence where foundations less than 300mm deep

This message originated Externally. Do not click links or open
attachments unless you recognise the sender, were expecting it and
know that the content is safe.

"we demonise the insurance industry for trying to minimise the cost to
their customer"


Delete 'customer'; substitute 'shareholder'.

From my mobile
On 8 September 2020 18:43:44 Liam McKarry
<Liam.McKarry@xxxxxxxxxxx.gov.uk>
wrote:

Bill,

It’s merely a statement of how things are as per case law.

Even if the foundation is not deep enough, in the absence of tree
roots would the damage occur is one of the first questions asked.
I’m unaware that anyone has ever successfully challenged it in law
and therefore, however illogical it is, we just have to deal with it.

Subsidence is a divisive subject that as an industry we get
ourselves in knots over (unnecessarily in my opinion) and have never
really understood that at the bottom of this is usually a person who
just wants their house fixed and  (how much flak will I get for that
one!)



Liam McKarry
Arboricultural Officer (Planning)
01206 XXXXXX
________________________________
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
on behalf of Bill Anderson <anderson.arb.original@xxxxxx.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 6:18:40 PM
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Subsidence where foundations less than 300mm deep

This message originated Externally. Do not click links or open
attachments
unless you recognise the sender, were expecting it and know that the
content is safe.

"Whether we like it or not inadequate foundations is rarely a good
defence
if the property is on a clay soil with a cyclical pattern of movement"

I don't see any logic in this statement Liam; why bother with
foundations at all? If the foundation is not adequate for the soil
type, doesn't meet spec, (specification) it's not really fair to even 
call it a foundation.
However if the foundation does meet the spec and still moves then
yes remove the tree, and hope that another one doesn't grow.
Notwithstanding the fact that if the foundation meets spec and still
the building cracks then the spec must have been wrong.

I'm not saying your quotation isn't an accurate summary of what
happens, just that it's not really logical, and certainly not fair.
Jerry has
summed
it up really eloquently in my opinion.



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The UKTC forum is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
and Stockholm Tree Pits https://www.stockholmtreepits.co.uk
This email, and any attachment, is solely for the intended recipient(s).
If you have received it in error, you must not take any action based
upon it, or forward, copy or show it to anyone; please notify the
sender, then permanently delete it and any attachments. Any views or
opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not
necessarily represent those of Colchester Borough Council. Although
the Council has taken reasonable precautions to ensure there are no
viruses in this email, the Council cannot accept responsibility for
any loss or damage arising from this email or attachments. The Council
takes the management of personal data seriously and it does this in
compliance with data protection legislation. For information about how
personal data is used and stored, please go to 
www.colchester.gov.uk/privacy.



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The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC forum is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
and Stockholm Tree Pits https://www.stockholmtreepits.co.uk




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The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC forum is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy and
Stockholm Tree Pits
https://www.stockholmtreepits.co.uk
This email, and any attachment, is solely for the intended recipient(s). If 
you have received it in error, you must not take any action based upon it, or 
forward, copy or show it to anyone; please notify the sender, then 
permanently delete it and any attachments. Any views or opinions expressed 
are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of 
Colchester Borough Council. Although the Council has taken reasonable 
precautions to ensure there are no viruses in this email, the Council cannot 
accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising from this email or 
attachments. The Council takes the management of personal data seriously and 
it does this in compliance with data protection legislation. For information 
about how personal data is used and stored, please go to 
www.colchester.gov.uk/privacy.



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To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC forum is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy and
Stockholm Tree Pits
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