UKTC Archive

RE: Natives vs future

Subject: RE: Natives vs future
From: Rupert Baker
Date: Oct 24 2020 20:08:07
Ah agricultural crops - wheat and barley from 'the fertile crescent' and the 
land between the Tigris & Euphrates; Rye from E Europe/ Russia potatoes from 
S America;  maize from Mexico/S USA;  Rye grass monocultures from Italy; and 
farmers are now happily growing Quinoa, - andes - and a range of beans - 
various S American countries  - 
Let alone vegetable crops.
PS the humble sparrow is not a true native - it has followed humans ghere 
from the middle east.  Too much self-righteous nativism, basking? In a tiny 
range of psecies that made it across since the last ice age.
Oh and 'English Elm' almost certainly imported by paleolithic man....
Rant over
Rupert

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info On Behalf Of Roderick Leslie
Sent: 24 October 2020 16:25
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Natives vs future


Coming into this a little late (and maybe it's been covered already) one of 
my two revelations of 2020 m(the other was that released gamebirds are twice 
the biomass of native British birds) was Jonathan Spencer's recent work 
reported in RFS papers of the range of trees that would have been in Europe 
before the ice - and the contrast with N America - and the reason: the 
barriers in N America run north south (thus a seperate field guide for 
Eastern and Western USW !) but in Europe E-W - the Med, Pyrennees and Alps - 
which are simply another layer to the English Channel. There is little or no 
reason the trees that didn't make it back won't grow brilliantly in Europe 
today. The big issue with 'exotics' ios what was there before - if it is even 
faintly native species woodland it should be kept as such - there's too 
little left already but if its improved farmland - well where did what was 
growing there before tree establishment come from ? Most probably the Middle 
East or South America.

Roderick Leslie

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jim Quaife" <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Thursday, 22 Oct, 20 At 16:51
Subject: RE: Natives vs future
Er - preceded the END OF the ice age.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Jim Quaife
Sent: 22 October 2020 16:48
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Spam> RE: Natives vs future
I will try and find the details, but an FC friend was in the New Forest for 
many years (27 I think) and they were investigating soils and discovered 
Liriodendron pollen at a depth that probably preceded the ice age.  We 
generally regard 10,000 years ago as the retreat of the ice which was not 
supposed to have reached the south coast, although the ghylls near 
Crowborough, East Sussex, are (apparently) typical of meltwater.
Our 33 natives is a pathetically small number, and the naturalisation of 
elms, horse chestnut, sycamore et al is well established, each with their 
adopted ecology.  (Sycamore has far more associated wildlife than beech).  At 
a meeting of the Oxford Forestry Group in 1991 I listened to the study of the 
alternating succession between ash and sycamore.
I wonder if the fixation about native species is quite as binary as some 
would have it.
DED and ADD are a litmus test of bio-security and I for one advocate exotics, 
provided that one is mindful of proportionality and respect areas where 
native is actually the justified priority.
Right - time for more coffee!
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info 
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Jerry Ross
Sent: 22 October 2020 15:50
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Natives vs future
It's worth recalling that our natives have been around through several pretty 
major climatic vicissitudes: the Roman Warm Period,from 250BC to AD 400,when 
temperatures were between 1 & 2° warmer and there were vineyards in Norway; 
then there was the medieval warm period from 950 to 1250, not to mention the 
Holocene climatic optimum, a thousand years after the last ice age. And we 
shouldn't ignore the 'little ice age'
between 1645 and 1715
Most of our native species weathered these changes, so let's not write them 
off now.


On 22/10/2020 12:34, Charlie Ashworth wrote:
Bryn,
Sorry, my interest was in specifics.
But re your interest, there is a need to plant a diverse range of species to 
meet climate/environmental changes, but if we stop planting natives in groups 
then we are not even giving them a chance to adapt.  I understand the desire 
to plant for successful timber production, but there should be a balance 
between the old and the new - as there would be in a natural, unplanted, 
woodland environment - as well as a balance between profit and benevolence.
Charlie

Charlotte Ashworth MArborA
www.tree-care.org.uk
charlie@xxxxxxxxxx.org.uk
Mobile:07812 XXX XXX
Office: 01270 XXX XXX
On 22 Oct 2020, at 09:59, Brynley Andrews <brynley.andrews@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:
Charlie, Tahir, Jim
Thanks for the replies.
The current farmland covers 120ha and we are aiming for planting ~ 15ha of 
woodland. Orchards and parkland are also happening. A further ~ 400ha are in 
the pipeline.
The specifics about right species and management are not what interest me 
here, which is the battle between the old 'native species are best mantra'
and modern 'climate/carbon/futurism' models. My point being - surely it is 
time for climate/carbon/futurism, and therefore, those pushing natives as a 
knee jerk response are out of touch?
Being slightly provocative for the sake of debate.
Thanks
Bryn
On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 at 09:31, Jim Quaife <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:
Hi Brynley,
Sounds like a really absorbing project, but with no details about anything 
all one can say is that depending upon scale there is usually a compromise.  
The ambition for a sawmill is very much long term if it is based on current 
planting!
The appetite for a sawmill suggests that there is already some production in 
view, but again a sawmill can be a Woodmizer (or something similar -
owned or contract hire) or a static installation.   If it is to be 
anything
other than casual/incidental the throughput needs to be substantial.
The use of exotics is to my mind essential as a diversity safeguard for 
bio-security.
The fascination with woodlands is that they can accommodate a wide range of 
interests and the role of the consultant is to explore them all and to come 
up with a balanced scheme.  Again, depending upon scale it doesn't 
necessarily have to be done in one hit.
Enjoy!
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Brynley Andrews
Sent: 22 October 2020 08:49
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Natives vs future
Dear all
I am involved in a large scale farm woodland planting scheme.
The FC favour high performance carbon/timber/eco species, and the ANOB/LA 
landscape planners favour traditional species to form traditional landscape 
features.
There is considerable overlap potential but the FC seem to be more inline 
with modern thinking. And arguably the LA/ANOB are part of the old failed 
model.
Also, The landowner intends to eventually run a sawmill on the Eatate.
I am proposing a highly diverse mix of 50/50 exotics & natives as suits the 
soil/climate/objectives - with special emphasis on targeting habitat for 
priority fauna species.
It is a fun project & I welcome your input.
Thanks
Brynley
--
Brynley Arboriculturist / urban forester

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Brynley M M Andrews MSc., C.Env., M.Arbor.A.
www.brynleyandrewsassociates.com
01935 XXXXXX
07970 XXXXXX

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