UKTC Archive

Re: Natives vs future

Subject: Re: Natives vs future
From: Brynley Andrews
Date: Oct 24 2020 20:19:11
Nice informative rant Rupert 👍
Thought the (bloody) Romans brought the elm for their vines.

On Sat, 24 Oct 2020 at 21:08, Rupert Baker <rupert_baker@xxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

Ah agricultural crops - wheat and barley from 'the fertile crescent' and
the land between the Tigris & Euphrates; Rye from E Europe/ Russia potatoes
from S America;  maize from Mexico/S USA;  Rye grass monocultures from
Italy; and farmers are now happily growing Quinoa, - andes - and a range of
beans - various S American countries  -
Let alone vegetable crops.
PS the humble sparrow is not a true native - it has followed humans ghere
from the middle east.  Too much self-righteous nativism, basking? In a tiny
range of psecies that made it across since the last ice age.
Oh and 'English Elm' almost certainly imported by paleolithic man....
Rant over
Rupert

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info On Behalf Of Roderick Leslie
Sent: 24 October 2020 16:25
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Natives vs future


Coming into this a little late (and maybe it's been covered already) one
of my two revelations of 2020 m(the other was that released gamebirds are
twice the biomass of native British birds) was Jonathan Spencer's recent
work reported in RFS papers of the range of trees that would have been in
Europe before the ice - and the contrast with N America - and the reason:
the barriers in N America run north south (thus a seperate field guide for
Eastern and Western USW !) but in Europe E-W - the Med, Pyrennees and Alps
- which are simply another layer to the English Channel. There is little or
no reason the trees that didn't make it back won't grow brilliantly in
Europe today. The big issue with 'exotics' ios what was there before - if
it is even faintly native species woodland it should be kept as such -
there's too little left already but if its improved farmland - well where
did what was growing there before tree establishment come from ? Most
probably the Middle East or South America.

Roderick Leslie

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jim Quaife" <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Thursday, 22 Oct, 20 At 16:51
Subject: RE: Natives vs future
Er - preceded the END OF the ice age.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Jim Quaife
Sent: 22 October 2020 16:48
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Spam> RE: Natives vs future
I will try and find the details, but an FC friend was in the New Forest
for many years (27 I think) and they were investigating soils and
discovered Liriodendron pollen at a depth that probably preceded the ice
age.  We generally regard 10,000 years ago as the retreat of the ice which
was not supposed to have reached the south coast, although the ghylls near
Crowborough, East Sussex, are (apparently) typical of meltwater.
Our 33 natives is a pathetically small number, and the naturalisation of
elms, horse chestnut, sycamore et al is well established, each with their
adopted ecology.  (Sycamore has far more associated wildlife than beech).
At a meeting of the Oxford Forestry Group in 1991 I listened to the study
of the alternating succession between ash and sycamore.
I wonder if the fixation about native species is quite as binary as some
would have it.
DED and ADD are a litmus test of bio-security and I for one advocate
exotics, provided that one is mindful of proportionality and respect areas
where native is actually the justified priority.
Right - time for more coffee!
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Jerry Ross
Sent: 22 October 2020 15:50
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Natives vs future
It's worth recalling that our natives have been around through several
pretty major climatic vicissitudes: the Roman Warm Period,from 250BC to AD
400,when temperatures were between 1 & 2° warmer and there were vineyards
in Norway; then there was the medieval warm period from 950 to 1250, not to
mention the Holocene climatic optimum, a thousand years after the last ice
age. And we shouldn't ignore the 'little ice age'
between 1645 and 1715
Most of our native species weathered these changes, so let's not write
them off now.


On 22/10/2020 12:34, Charlie Ashworth wrote:
Bryn,
Sorry, my interest was in specifics.
But re your interest, there is a need to plant a diverse range of species
to meet climate/environmental changes, but if we stop planting natives in
groups then we are not even giving them a chance to adapt.  I understand
the desire to plant for successful timber production, but there should be a
balance between the old and the new - as there would be in a natural,
unplanted, woodland environment - as well as a balance between profit and
benevolence.
Charlie

Charlotte Ashworth MArborA
www.tree-care.org.uk
charlie@xxxxxxxxxx.org.uk
Mobile:07812 XXX XXX
Office: 01270 XXX XXX
On 22 Oct 2020, at 09:59, Brynley Andrews <brynley.andrews@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:
Charlie, Tahir, Jim
Thanks for the replies.
The current farmland covers 120ha and we are aiming for planting ~ 15ha of
woodland. Orchards and parkland are also happening. A further ~ 400ha are
in the pipeline.
The specifics about right species and management are not what interest me
here, which is the battle between the old 'native species are best mantra'
and modern 'climate/carbon/futurism' models. My point being - surely it is
time for climate/carbon/futurism, and therefore, those pushing natives as a
knee jerk response are out of touch?
Being slightly provocative for the sake of debate.
Thanks
Bryn
On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 at 09:31, Jim Quaife <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:
Hi Brynley,
Sounds like a really absorbing project, but with no details about anything
all one can say is that depending upon scale there is usually a
compromise.  The ambition for a sawmill is very much long term if it is
based on current planting!
The appetite for a sawmill suggests that there is already some production
in view, but again a sawmill can be a Woodmizer (or something similar -
owned or contract hire) or a static installation.   If it is to be
anything
other than casual/incidental the throughput needs to be substantial.
The use of exotics is to my mind essential as a diversity safeguard for
bio-security.
The fascination with woodlands is that they can accommodate a wide range
of interests and the role of the consultant is to explore them all and to
come up with a balanced scheme.  Again, depending upon scale it doesn't
necessarily have to be done in one hit.
Enjoy!
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Brynley Andrews
Sent: 22 October 2020 08:49
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Natives vs future
Dear all
I am involved in a large scale farm woodland planting scheme.
The FC favour high performance carbon/timber/eco species, and the ANOB/LA
landscape planners favour traditional species to form traditional landscape
features.
There is considerable overlap potential but the FC seem to be more inline
with modern thinking. And arguably the LA/ANOB are part of the old failed
model.
Also, The landowner intends to eventually run a sawmill on the Eatate.
I am proposing a highly diverse mix of 50/50 exotics & natives as suits
the soil/climate/objectives - with special emphasis on targeting habitat
for priority fauna species.
It is a fun project & I welcome your input.
Thanks
Brynley
--
Brynley Arboriculturist / urban forester

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Brynley M M Andrews MSc., C.Env., M.Arbor.A.
www.brynleyandrewsassociates.com
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07970 XXXXXX

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The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
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The UK Tree Care mailing list
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-- 
Brynley Arboriculturist / urban forester



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The UKTC forum is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy and
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