UKTC Archive

Re: Natives vs future

Subject: Re: Natives vs future
From: Brynley Andrews
Date: Oct 24 2020 20:19:58
Interesting

On Sat, 24 Oct 2020 at 16:25, Roderick Leslie <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
wrote:


Coming into this a little late (and maybe it's been covered already) one
of my two revelations of 2020 m(the other was that released gamebirds
are twice the biomass of native British birds) was Jonathan Spencer's
recent work reported in RFS papers of the range of trees that would have
been in Europe before the ice - and the contrast with N America - and
the reason: the barriers in N America run north south (thus a seperate
field guide for Eastern and Western USW !) but in Europe E-W - the Med,
Pyrennees and Alps - which are simply another layer to the English
Channel. There is little or no reason the trees that didn't make it back
won't grow brilliantly in Europe today. The big issue with 'exotics' ios
what was there before - if it is even faintly native species woodland it
should be kept as such - there's too little left already but if its
improved farmland - well where did what was growing there before tree
establishment come from ? Most probably the Middle East or South
America.

Roderick Leslie

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jim Quaife" <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
To: "UK Tree Care" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Thursday, 22 Oct, 20 At 16:51
Subject: RE: Natives vs future
Er - preceded the END OF the ice age.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Jim Quaife
Sent: 22 October 2020 16:48
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Spam> RE: Natives vs future
I will try and find the details, but an FC friend was in the New Forest
for many years (27 I think) and they were investigating soils and
discovered Liriodendron pollen at a depth that probably preceded the ice
age.  We generally regard 10,000 years ago as the retreat of the ice
which was not supposed to have reached the south coast, although the
ghylls near Crowborough, East Sussex, are (apparently) typical of
meltwater.
Our 33 natives is a pathetically small number, and the naturalisation of
elms, horse chestnut, sycamore et al is well established, each with
their adopted ecology.  (Sycamore has far more associated wildlife than
beech).  At a meeting of the Oxford Forestry Group in 1991 I listened to
the study of the alternating succession between ash and sycamore.
I wonder if the fixation about native species is quite as binary as some
would have it.
DED and ADD are a litmus test of bio-security and I for one advocate
exotics, provided that one is mindful of proportionality and respect
areas where native is actually the justified priority.
Right - time for more coffee!
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
[mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Jerry Ross
Sent: 22 October 2020 15:50
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Natives vs future
It's worth recalling that our natives have been around through several
pretty major climatic vicissitudes: the Roman Warm Period,from 250BC to
AD 400,when temperatures were between 1 & 2° warmer and there were
vineyards in Norway; then there was the medieval warm period from 950 to
1250, not to mention the Holocene climatic optimum, a thousand years
after the last ice age. And we shouldn't ignore the 'little ice age'
between 1645 and 1715
Most of our native species weathered these changes, so let's not write
them off now.


On 22/10/2020 12:34, Charlie Ashworth wrote:
Bryn,
Sorry, my interest was in specifics.
But re your interest, there is a need to plant a diverse range of
species to meet climate/environmental changes, but if we stop planting
natives in groups then we are not even giving them a chance to adapt.  I
understand the desire to plant for successful timber production, but
there should be a balance between the old and the new - as there would
be in a natural, unplanted, woodland environment - as well as a balance
between profit and benevolence.
Charlie

Charlotte Ashworth MArborA
www.tree-care.org.uk
charlie@xxxxxxxxxx.org.uk
Mobile:07812 XXX XXX
Office: 01270 XXX XXX
On 22 Oct 2020, at 09:59, Brynley Andrews <brynley.andrews@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:
Charlie, Tahir, Jim
Thanks for the replies.
The current farmland covers 120ha and we are aiming for planting ~ 15ha
of
woodland. Orchards and parkland are also happening. A further ~ 400ha
are
in the pipeline.
The specifics about right species and management are not what interest
me
here, which is the battle between the old 'native species are best
mantra'
and modern 'climate/carbon/futurism' models. My point being - surely it
is
time for climate/carbon/futurism, and therefore, those pushing natives
as a
knee jerk response are out of touch?
Being slightly provocative for the sake of debate.
Thanks
Bryn
On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 at 09:31, Jim Quaife <jq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:
Hi Brynley,
Sounds like a really absorbing project, but with no details about
anything
all one can say is that depending upon scale there is usually a
compromise.  The ambition for a sawmill is very much long term if it is
based on current planting!
The appetite for a sawmill suggests that there is already some
production
in view, but again a sawmill can be a Woodmizer (or something similar -
owned or contract hire) or a static installation.   If it is to be
anything
other than casual/incidental the throughput needs to be substantial.
The use of exotics is to my mind essential as a diversity safeguard for
bio-security.
The fascination with woodlands is that they can accommodate a wide range
of interests and the role of the consultant is to explore them all and
to
come up with a balanced scheme.  Again, depending upon scale it doesn't
necessarily have to be done in one hit.
Enjoy!
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Brynley Andrews
Sent: 22 October 2020 08:49
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Natives vs future
Dear all
I am involved in a large scale farm woodland planting scheme.
The FC favour high performance carbon/timber/eco species, and the
ANOB/LA
landscape planners favour traditional species to form traditional
landscape
features.
There is considerable overlap potential but the FC seem to be more
inline
with modern thinking. And arguably the LA/ANOB are part of the old
failed
model.
Also, The landowner intends to eventually run a sawmill on the Eatate.
I am proposing a highly diverse mix of 50/50 exotics & natives as suits
the
soil/climate/objectives - with special emphasis on targeting habitat for
priority fauna species.
It is a fun project & I welcome your input.
Thanks
Brynley
--
Brynley Arboriculturist / urban forester

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Brynley M M Andrews MSc., C.Env., M.Arbor.A.
www.brynleyandrewsassociates.com
01935 XXXXXX
07970 XXXXXX

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The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
The UKTC forum is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
and
Stockholm Tree Pits
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<https://www.stockholmtreepits.co.uk>

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The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
The UKTC forum is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
and
Stockholm Tree Pits
https://www.stockholmtreepits.co.uk
<https://www.stockholmtreepits.co.uk>

--
The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
The UKTC forum is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy
and
Stockholm Tree Pits
https://www.stockholmtreepits.co.uk
<https://www.stockholmtreepits.co.uk>




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The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC forum is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy and
Stockholm Tree Pits
https://www.stockholmtreepits.co.uk

-- 
Brynley Arboriculturist / urban forester



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The UK Tree Care mailing list
To unsubscribe send mailto:uktc-unsubscribe@xxxxxx.tree-care.info

The UKTC forum is supported by Bosky Trees arboricultural consultancy and
Stockholm Tree Pits
https://www.stockholmtreepits.co.uk