UKTC Archive

Re: Here we go again: Parker v National Trust

Subject: Re: Here we go again: Parker v National Trust
From: Michael Richardson
Date: Oct 13 2021 20:26:43
Yawn


Michael Richardson B.Sc.F., BCMA
Ontario MTCU Qualified Arborist
Richardson Tree Care
Richardsontreecare.ca
613-475-2877
800-769-9183

  <http://www.richardsontreecare.ca/images/Tree_Doc_logo_email.png>



On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:14 PM Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

So my questions are invalid?

WT

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 12:17 PM Julian Dunster <jd@xxxxxxxx.ca> wrote:

Wayne.

The reality is that what you seek is usually part of the evidence
presented at trial, but the judge is under no obligation to rehash part
or any of it in the decision.

On Behalf of Dunster and Associates Environmental Consultants Ltd.


Dr. Julian A Dunster R.P.F., R.P.P.., M.C.I.P., ISA Certified Arborist,
ASCA Registered Consulting Arborist # 378,
ISA Tree Risk Assessment Qualified
Honourary Life Member ISA + PNWISA

North American distributor for Rinntech
www.dunster.ca
www.treelaw.info
www.rinntech.info

On Wed/10/13/2021 10:34 AM, Wayne Tyson wrote:
The fact that "inspection" was happening at all implies that there was
a
recognition that a concern about tree failure potential was present, as
was
the duty to inspect, with the objective of public safety.

For some reason, a failure occurred, resulting in serious injuries. A
post-failure inspection and study/report should have revealed factors
relevant to the failure, including whether or not a competent
inspection
would or would not reasonably have "missed" one or more such factors.
It
*appears* that the inspection "procedure" consisted of walking around
looking at trees, but since no procedure was even mentioned, much less
described, such a provisional assumption that more detail should have
been
required should be considered by any court of law, not to mention tree
professionals.

WT

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 8:41 AM Bill Anderson <
anderson.arb.original@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

I think it's completely fair to not be able to remember inspecting a
tree
Wayne. You're only likely to remember inspecting ones that had
something
notable about them, which might have been a risk factor or it might
have
been something else. As a favour I had a look around an outdoor
activities
centre for the Girl Guides Association on Saturday, 5 days ago.
(Lockdown
has hit the Scouts and Guides hard and I fear for their future.) I
can't
remember anything about the trees beyond the Sycamore with Kretzsch at
the
base, and the extremely fine young Tulip tree.
Bill.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 10:00, oldoaktree@xxxxxxxxx.net <
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> wrote:

Yes very good CPD, as it comes from a very different angle than we
arbs
usually clatter on at.

The first thing I'm going to do is check my website to make sure I'm
not
making any outrageous claims! It was sobering to see how the
appellant's
barrister used the wording and slant on the expert's website to form
what
seemed to be quite a significant criticism of him, something the
Judge
had
to spend time weighing up.

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
On Behalf Of Jim Quaife
Sent: 13 October 2021 09:12
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: RE: Here we go again: Parker v National Trust

The judgement is a relief as not only does it accord with the essence
of
assessing tree risk, but also adds weight to the NTSG document
www.ntsg.org.uk In the UK the risk of death caused by a tree to a
member
of the public averages 6 a year (pop circ 68.3 million) and the risk
of
injury is cited as one in a million (70 incidents a year?) An
American
risk
specialist - whose name I can't remember - provided a comparison as
being
the equivalent risk of being killed in a 200 mile drive.  Risk and
statistics are specific academic subjects and a lay person's
understanding
(that's me) of them is limited.
I have long-described arboriculture as the "pursuit of estimation"
and
most after-the-event opinions about incidents of tree failure have to
be
treated with caution.
Russ is absolutely right about the role of a judge, and when hearing
evidence from expert witnesses they have to assess credibility as
well
as
the technical offerings.
If a judge is given false evidence without realising it is so, (s)he
can
do no more than rely upon it.
This judgement is very well-considered and logical to follow, and I
regard
such documents as essential CPD.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info [mailto:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info] On Behalf Of Russ Carlson
Sent: 13 October 2021 04:57
To: UK Tree Care
Subject: Re: Here we go again: Parker v National Trust

[Text converted from HTML]
Wayne, the link was only the court's summary of the case and judge's
decision. My thought was that he gave far more technical detail than
most
U.S. Courts do in their opinions. The judge is dealing with issues of
law,
whatever side of the pond, hill, or road he is on. He provides only
the
information he finds necessary to explain his decision based on the
law
of
the land. We may be experts at tree assessments, but the judge is the
expert on the law, and that is what counts once a case gets to that
level.
All your questions may be valid at some level. Those are questions
the
experts must address, whether individually or jointly for the court.

[R]


---
Russ Carlson, RCA, BCMA
ASCA Registered Consulting Arborist #354 ISA Board Certified Master
Arborist PD-0008B ISA Tree Risk Assessment Qualification

Tree Tech Consulting
114 Grand Canyon Court
Bear, DE 19701
302.832.1911 phone
thearborist@xxxx.com
www.tree-tech.com

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On 10/12/21 5:55 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote:

   The very devil is in the details. The argument is short on them.
Arguing
   from authority has long been considered fallacious.

   Where are the inspection records? What was known to the defendant
and
what
   was not known? If the inspector of record "did not remember"
whether or
not
   he had or hadn't inspected the tree, what does that say about
"adequacy"
of
   inspection? What was the condition of the "branch" at the point of
failure?
   Were there any signs of pre-failure defects or indirect indicators
of
   stress that a professional would have or should have seen?
Considering
tree
   failures as a subset of trees, what fraction of such failures
occurred
in
   the absence of any indicators, direct or indirect, of a trend
toward
   decline or improvement in tree condition? Was a detailed
post-failure
   assessment of the factors relevant to the event conducted for the
record?
   WT

   On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 1:51 PM   oldoaktree@xxxxxxxxx.net   <
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info  > wrote:


     A very interesting read. Useful to ponder on tree safety
decisions.

     As ever, life-changing injuries are tragic and deserve the very
best
     sympathy. On the other hand, do we chop down every tree that can
ever
harm
     us?

     The precise diagnosis of the ins and outs of the failure would
have
been
     useful for me and this bunch of armchair critics but I guess
this
was
not
     the matter of the case, only the presence and skill of the
inspector
as far
     as I can see.

     Not that I am good in a quarrel, but I'd not like to argue with
the
Judge.

     Further reading may bring another point of view, but I'm not
able
to
get
     to that!

     Cheers

     Dave

     -----Original Message-----
     From:     uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info         <
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>    On Behalf Of Elton Watson
     Sent: 12 October 2021 18:39
     To: UK Tree Care     <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>    Subject:
RE:
Here
we go again: Parker v National Trust

     Thanks for posting Jon.
     Very useful.

     Elton



     Sent from my Galaxy



     -------- Original message --------
     From: Jon Heuch     <jh@xxxxxxxx.co.uk>    Date: 11/10/2021
15:54
(GMT+00:00)
     To: UK Tree Care     <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>    Subject:
Here we
go again: Parker v National Trust

     Parker v National Trust



     You will find the judgment here:
https://www.blmlaw.com/images/uploaded/File/judgment_v2.pdf


     Commentary here:     https://www.lexology.com/r.ashx?l=9KXEWZP


     Jon






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