UKTC Archive

Re: Biodiversity value of a private garden lawn?

Subject: Re: Biodiversity value of a private garden lawn?
From: benjaminfuest758@xxxxxxxxxxx.com
Date: Nov 18 2021 13:02:43
Last night I watched a very interesting documentary about ice and glaciers. 
Some Scottish Dr fellow usually associated with volcanoes. 
Anyway he showed how glaciers grind rocks to small fragments or shale. He 
also touched on large bore holes that appear in glaziers where melt water 
flows to the bottom of the glacier lubricating the glaciers and speeding up 
the flow. In some instances as much as 40 meters per day. 
Ultimately they all flow to sea, and levels rise. 


Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Nov 2021, at 09:49, AV Arboriculture <mike@xxxxxxx.co.uk> wrote:

It was the glacier melt-water that covered the forests, water-logging the 
soil and creating peat-bogs.  I was querying forest evolution, not 
heathland.  Anyway, I would still question that assumption.  

Also, the first firsts appeared on the planet around 380M years ago, while 
humans first evolved around 1-2M years ago.  So how did those forests 
survive all that time without turning to peat bogs?

Could you give us some references - I'd like to understand this a bit more.

Regards, 

Mike Charkow 
Principal Arboriculturist 
Cert Arb L3 (ABC), MA 
______________________ 
Arbor Vitae Arboriculture Ltd 

Planning surveys, Tree inspections, Bats in trees inspections, 
Arboricultural consultancy, Soil de-compaction, Root Investigation, 
Woodland Management. 

[ mailto:info@xxxxxxx.co.uk | info@xxxxxxx.co.uk ] 
[ https://avtree.co.uk/ | www.avtree.co.uk ] 
07917XXXXXX 
Company Registration Number: SC413171

----- Original Message -----
From: "Antony Croft" <rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
To: "uktc" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 09:45:04
Subject: Re: Biodiversity value of a private garden lawn?

glaciers creat gravel beds not huge swathes of several meters of organic
carbon deposits!  The scottish highlands ecology is acidic heathlands where
do you think that ecology succeeds to without game keepers? and burn off

On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 11:41 AM AV Arboriculture <mike@xxxxxxx.co.uk> 
wrote:

Can you give some references for this evidence?  It just doesn't make
sense to me.  Scotland's peat bogs were created due to melting glaciers
post-ice-age, not because man wasn't harvesting it.  Every natural forest
is an ecosystem and will be constantly recycling nutrients and maintaining
some sort of equilibrium.  I can see that the commercial conifer
toilet-paper forests could potentially end up as peat-bogs, as long as
nothing else colonised the forest, and if they were at the bottom of a glen
- but that's about it.

Regards,

Mike Charkow
Principal Arboriculturist
Cert Arb L3 (ABC), MA
______________________
Arbor Vitae Arboriculture Ltd

Planning surveys, Tree inspections, Bats in trees inspections,
Arboricultural consultancy, Soil de-compaction, Root Investigation,
Woodland Management.

[ mailto:info@xxxxxxx.co.uk | info@xxxxxxx.co.uk ]
[ https://avtree.co.uk/ | www.avtree.co.uk ]
07917XXXXXX
Company Registration Number: SC413171

----- Original Message -----
From: "Antony Croft" <rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
To: "uktc" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 09:32:04
Subject: Re: Biodiversity value of a private garden lawn?

Forests such as the amazon have a different life span due to the heated
soil ecology, damp conditions and a great number of ants doing a lot of
cleaning up.

The acidification and decline of forest eco systems is well evidenced and
if it was not true, we would not be paying large sums for highly prized
''bog oak''

On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 11:16 AM AV Arboriculture <mike@xxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

I can't see any evidence of this mono-directional trend towards peat
bogs,
either in the UK nor in the ancient rainforests that remain across the
world.

Regards,

Mike Charkow
Principal Arboriculturist
Cert Arb L3 (ABC), MA
______________________
Arbor Vitae Arboriculture Ltd

Planning surveys, Tree inspections, Bats in trees inspections,
Arboricultural consultancy, Soil de-compaction, Root Investigation,
Woodland Management.

[ mailto:info@xxxxxxx.co.uk | info@xxxxxxx.co.uk ]
[ https://avtree.co.uk/ | www.avtree.co.uk ]
07917XXXXXX
Company Registration Number: SC413171

----- Original Message -----
From: "Antony Croft" <rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
To: "uktc" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 November, 2021 18:51:14
Subject: Re: Biodiversity value of a private garden lawn?

There are thousands of old woodlands across the British isles that were
held in a successional stasis by the activities of man. They remain today
albeit in a now later stage of woodland development due to the lack of ''
odgers and grazers''

Eco systems tend to acidify over time and favour the fungi, locking up
increasing amounts of potassium and phosphor, eventually a peat bog is
the
ultimate destination of the forest without man harvesting.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 7:06 PM Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

Ecosystems are dynamic, in a constant state of adjustment, genetically
and
physiologically, not frozen like gardens are forced to be by gardeners.
However, despite the gardeners' best efforts, gardens will "try" to
break
out of their confinement in any way possible, as your post on fungi
pointed
out. Cultivation sets back fungal (e.g., mycorrhizal) development. This
stimulates "weeds," which are mostly non-mycorrhizal, which invites
more
cultivation in a never-ending cycle until gardening is abandoned, when
"old
field" succession can do its work establishing a trend, however slow it
might be, toward dynamic equilibrium and away from the static, frozen
state
of a garden.

WT

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 9:56 PM Antony Croft <
rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

stasis, permanences, frozen,

Succession= the process of the evolving ecology in a given habitat, a
forest has a life span. Even individual logs go through a
successional process of decays a fresh log for example rich with saps
versus a late pile of broken mush hosting slime molds and eyelashes.
The
living tree has a mycorrhizal successional march as well.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 12:15 AM Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

". . . stasis of succession . . . ?" Please explain.

WT

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 1:47 PM Antony Croft <
rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

On the contrary, man historically has created through his actions
some
of
the most biologically diverse habitats, and also held that
biodiversity
in
a stasis of succession which has enabled very long term sustained
conditions for that biodiversity. We have lost our way, but there
was a
time when man actually increased biodiversity.

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:15 PM Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

Well said. However, "nature" doesn't "need" us, or for that
matter
any
other species.

“Ecosystems are not only more complex than we think, they are
more
complex
than we *can *think.” --Frank Egler


WT

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 10:16 PM Antony Croft <
rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

eWFLEL
There are paradoxes, many of them surrounding our ideas of
what
nature
needs. We all too often think we are a negative force in the
world
and
that
if we just left the scene altogether life would thrive. The
reality
is
that
despite the plant fancieing gardeners choices there are many
aspects,
within the older generations that actually increase the
biodiversity
potential and quality of the habitats within the urban
sprawl.
Old
now
neglected fruit trees full of saproxylic habitat, mossy lawns
full
of
wax
caps, grass clippings poled up and providing warm rotting
sanctuaries
for
slow worms and indeed their food supply. seedheads bird boxes
and
feeders.

The modern garden is of poor quality it has to be said, the
policy
of
new
build builders/developers is to scrape evey ounce of soil
down
to
its
base
and at the end lay a facade of greenery over the top like a
bandaid
with
hearts on it, looks lovely but hids a rape of the earth that
has
about
as
much natural empathy as a nucluer test program.



On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:31 PM Wayne Tyson <
wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

While I'm not absolutely certain about the statistics, I
quite
agree
with
your remarks about agriculture. I hope you will consider
writing
a
piece
for a newspaper of wide circulation. This commonly ignored
fact
needs
to
become more widely known.

As for gardens, while I am happy to hear on good
mycological
authority
that
(presumably indigenous?) fungi have become established, it
would
be
interesting to know how the entire garden microbiome
compares
with
that
of
adjacent wilds. Gardens, by definition, are collections of
plants
fancied
by the gardener, not necessarily those of an indigenous
ecosystem.

WT

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 9:21 AM Antony Croft <
rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

As a fungal ecologist it always surprised me how many
rare
(supposedly,
due
to lack of records) fungi would be found in the older
urban
gardens,
usually owned by now pension aged non weedkiller types.
Succession
and
a
lack of ''improvement'' along with a good dose of time
does
quite
rightly
enable a remarkable amount of Biodiversity within the
urban
context.
You
could almost guarantee seeing vulnerable wax caps in a
pre
1940-1950's
lawn

As for the intensely managed agricultural setting, not
only a
biological/ecological desert but also a carbon devoid
soil.
Agricultural
practice will have contributed far more to atmospheric
carbon
than
every
car ever produced.

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 6:24 PM Bill Anderson <
anderson.arb.original@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

Angus said: I'm deeply skeptical of the biodiversity
value
of a
private
garden lawn and indeed any landscaping put in place by
commercial
housebuilders...

I'd say you were right to be sceptical Angus, but
Sheffield
University
did
a study that showed domestic housing away from city
centres
had
better
biodiversity than intensely cultivated agricultural
land.
(Google
"biodiversity in urban gardens, bugs1 and bugs 2")
However
I
suspect
it
takes some time for this sort of biodiversity to
develop
in
back
gardens,
and I suspect the usual housebuilders' landscaping
schemes
are
only a
step
in vaguely the right direction. I'm sick to the back
teeth
of
supermarket
car park type planting that features Cherry Laurel and
other
allelopathic
plants that do very little to improve biodiversity. I'd
rather
see
new
developments with no landscaping and the new occupants
actually
taking
an
interest. How you legislate for that I dunno.

I've not read the biodiversity net gain matrix thing
yet
but
if
it
doesn't
acknowledge that removing some plants is actually to
improve
biodiversity
then there's something wrong with it.

Bill.



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