UKTC Archive

RE: Biodiversity value of a private garden lawn?

Subject: RE: Biodiversity value of a private garden lawn?
From: Info @ Evolve Trees
Date: Nov 18 2021 14:29:42
Mike,

Dr Lee Klinger spoke about this exact subject at on the Neville Fay's 
Seminars a few years back.

Best regards,
Tim Scott-Ellis 
Evolve Tree Consultancy

-----Original Message-----
From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> 
On Behalf Of AV Arboriculture
Sent: 18 November 2021 09:49
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Biodiversity value of a private garden lawn?

It was the glacier melt-water that covered the forests, water-logging the 
soil and creating peat-bogs.  I was querying forest evolution, not heathland. 
 Anyway, I would still question that assumption.  

Also, the first firsts appeared on the planet around 380M years ago, while 
humans first evolved around 1-2M years ago.  So how did those forests survive 
all that time without turning to peat bogs?

Could you give us some references - I'd like to understand this a bit more.

Regards, 

Mike Charkow
Principal Arboriculturist
Cert Arb L3 (ABC), MA
______________________
Arbor Vitae Arboriculture Ltd 

Planning surveys, Tree inspections, Bats in trees inspections, Arboricultural 
consultancy, Soil de-compaction, Root Investigation, Woodland Management. 

[ mailto:info@xxxxxxx.co.uk | info@xxxxxxx.co.uk ] [ https://avtree.co.uk/ | 
www.avtree.co.uk ]
07917XXXXXX
Company Registration Number: SC413171

----- Original Message -----
From: "Antony Croft" <rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
To: "uktc" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 09:45:04
Subject: Re: Biodiversity value of a private garden lawn?

glaciers creat gravel beds not huge swathes of several meters of organic 
carbon deposits!  The scottish highlands ecology is acidic heathlands where 
do you think that ecology succeeds to without game keepers? and burn off

On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 11:41 AM AV Arboriculture <mike@xxxxxxx.co.uk> wrote:

Can you give some references for this evidence?  It just doesn't make 
sense to me.  Scotland's peat bogs were created due to melting 
glaciers post-ice-age, not because man wasn't harvesting it.  Every 
natural forest is an ecosystem and will be constantly recycling 
nutrients and maintaining some sort of equilibrium.  I can see that 
the commercial conifer toilet-paper forests could potentially end up 
as peat-bogs, as long as nothing else colonised the forest, and if 
they were at the bottom of a glen
- but that's about it.

Regards,

Mike Charkow
Principal Arboriculturist
Cert Arb L3 (ABC), MA
______________________
Arbor Vitae Arboriculture Ltd

Planning surveys, Tree inspections, Bats in trees inspections, 
Arboricultural consultancy, Soil de-compaction, Root Investigation, 
Woodland Management.

[ mailto:info@xxxxxxx.co.uk | info@xxxxxxx.co.uk ] [ 
https://avtree.co.uk/ | www.avtree.co.uk ]
07917XXXXXX
Company Registration Number: SC413171

----- Original Message -----
From: "Antony Croft" <rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
To: "uktc" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Thursday, 18 November, 2021 09:32:04
Subject: Re: Biodiversity value of a private garden lawn?

Forests such as the amazon have a different life span due to the 
heated soil ecology, damp conditions and a great number of ants doing 
a lot of cleaning up.

The acidification and decline of forest eco systems is well evidenced 
and if it was not true, we would not be paying large sums for highly 
prized ''bog oak''

On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 11:16 AM AV Arboriculture <mike@xxxxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

I can't see any evidence of this mono-directional trend towards peat
bogs,
either in the UK nor in the ancient rainforests that remain across 
the world.

Regards,

Mike Charkow
Principal Arboriculturist
Cert Arb L3 (ABC), MA
______________________
Arbor Vitae Arboriculture Ltd

Planning surveys, Tree inspections, Bats in trees inspections, 
Arboricultural consultancy, Soil de-compaction, Root Investigation, 
Woodland Management.

[ mailto:info@xxxxxxx.co.uk | info@xxxxxxx.co.uk ] [ 
https://avtree.co.uk/ | www.avtree.co.uk ]
07917XXXXXX
Company Registration Number: SC413171

----- Original Message -----
From: "Antony Croft" <rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
To: "uktc" <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 November, 2021 18:51:14
Subject: Re: Biodiversity value of a private garden lawn?

There are thousands of old woodlands across the British isles that 
were held in a successional stasis by the activities of man. They 
remain today albeit in a now later stage of woodland development due to 
the lack of ''
odgers and grazers''

Eco systems tend to acidify over time and favour the fungi, locking 
up increasing amounts of potassium and phosphor, eventually a peat 
bog is
the
ultimate destination of the forest without man harvesting.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 7:06 PM Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

Ecosystems are dynamic, in a constant state of adjustment, 
genetically
and
physiologically, not frozen like gardens are forced to be by gardeners.
However, despite the gardeners' best efforts, gardens will "try" 
to
break
out of their confinement in any way possible, as your post on 
fungi
pointed
out. Cultivation sets back fungal (e.g., mycorrhizal) development. 
This stimulates "weeds," which are mostly non-mycorrhizal, which 
invites
more
cultivation in a never-ending cycle until gardening is abandoned, 
when
"old
field" succession can do its work establishing a trend, however 
slow it might be, toward dynamic equilibrium and away from the 
static, frozen
state
of a garden.

WT

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 9:56 PM Antony Croft < 
rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

stasis, permanences, frozen,

Succession= the process of the evolving ecology in a given 
habitat, a forest has a life span. Even individual logs go 
through a successional process of decays a fresh log for example 
rich with saps versus a late pile of broken mush hosting slime molds 
and eyelashes.
The
living tree has a mycorrhizal successional march as well.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 12:15 AM Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

". . . stasis of succession . . . ?" Please explain.

WT

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 1:47 PM Antony Croft < 
rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

On the contrary, man historically has created through his 
actions
some
of
the most biologically diverse habitats, and also held that
biodiversity
in
a stasis of succession which has enabled very long term 
sustained conditions for that biodiversity. We have lost our 
way, but there
was a
time when man actually increased biodiversity.

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:15 PM Wayne Tyson 
<wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

Well said. However, "nature" doesn't "need" us, or for 
that
matter
any
other species.

“Ecosystems are not only more complex than we think, they 
are
more
complex
than we *can *think.” --Frank Egler


WT

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 10:16 PM Antony Croft < 
rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

eWFLEL
There are paradoxes, many of them surrounding our ideas 
of
what
nature
needs. We all too often think we are a negative force in 
the
world
and
that
if we just left the scene altogether life would thrive. 
The
reality
is
that
despite the plant fancieing gardeners choices there are 
many
aspects,
within the older generations that actually increase the
biodiversity
potential and quality of the habitats within the urban
sprawl.
Old
now
neglected fruit trees full of saproxylic habitat, mossy 
lawns
full
of
wax
caps, grass clippings poled up and providing warm 
rotting
sanctuaries
for
slow worms and indeed their food supply. seedheads bird 
boxes
and
feeders.

The modern garden is of poor quality it has to be said, 
the
policy
of
new
build builders/developers is to scrape evey ounce of 
soil
down
to
its
base
and at the end lay a facade of greenery over the top 
like a
bandaid
with
hearts on it, looks lovely but hids a rape of the earth 
that
has
about
as
much natural empathy as a nucluer test program.



On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:31 PM Wayne Tyson <
wt750mv@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

While I'm not absolutely certain about the statistics, 
I
quite
agree
with
your remarks about agriculture. I hope you will 
consider
writing
a
piece
for a newspaper of wide circulation. This commonly 
ignored
fact
needs
to
become more widely known.

As for gardens, while I am happy to hear on good
mycological
authority
that
(presumably indigenous?) fungi have become 
established, it
would
be
interesting to know how the entire garden microbiome
compares
with
that
of
adjacent wilds. Gardens, by definition, are 
collections of
plants
fancied
by the gardener, not necessarily those of an 
indigenous
ecosystem.

WT

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 9:21 AM Antony Croft < 
rositsavalleyangling@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

As a fungal ecologist it always surprised me how 
many
rare
(supposedly,
due
to lack of records) fungi would be found in the 
older
urban
gardens,
usually owned by now pension aged non weedkiller types.
Succession
and
a
lack of ''improvement'' along with a good dose of 
time
does
quite
rightly
enable a remarkable amount of Biodiversity within 
the
urban
context.
You
could almost guarantee seeing vulnerable wax caps in 
a
pre
1940-1950's
lawn

As for the intensely managed agricultural setting, 
not
only a
biological/ecological desert but also a carbon 
devoid
soil.
Agricultural
practice will have contributed far more to 
atmospheric
carbon
than
every
car ever produced.

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 6:24 PM Bill Anderson < 
anderson.arb.original@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

Angus said: I'm deeply skeptical of the 
biodiversity
value
of a
private
garden lawn and indeed any landscaping put in 
place by
commercial
housebuilders...

I'd say you were right to be sceptical Angus, but
Sheffield
University
did
a study that showed domestic housing away from 
city
centres
had
better
biodiversity than intensely cultivated 
agricultural
land.
(Google
"biodiversity in urban gardens, bugs1 and bugs 2")
However
I
suspect
it
takes some time for this sort of biodiversity to
develop
in
back
gardens,
and I suspect the usual housebuilders' landscaping
schemes
are
only a
step
in vaguely the right direction. I'm sick to the 
back
teeth
of
supermarket
car park type planting that features Cherry Laurel 
and
other
allelopathic
plants that do very little to improve 
biodiversity. I'd
rather
see
new
developments with no landscaping and the new 
occupants
actually
taking
an
interest. How you legislate for that I dunno.

I've not read the biodiversity net gain matrix 
thing
yet
but
if
it
doesn't
acknowledge that removing some plants is actually 
to
improve
biodiversity
then there's something wrong with it.

Bill.



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