UKTC Archive

Re: Relating to the human supremacist/dominance mindsets

Subject: Re: Relating to the human supremacist/dominance mindsets
From: Antony Croft
Date: Jan 11 2022 08:38:59
This all has one easy answer, be the change you want to see in the world,
of course that also requires ''natural empathy'' and a lot of cold turkey
on addictions, and also an acceptance for ones own personal provisions of
needs.

99.99% of the population dont have the stomach for the demands of life on
ones own terms.....

On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 9:11 AM Wayne Tyson <wt750mv@xxxxxx.com> wrote:

That qualifies as a finger . . .

WT

On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 11:04 PM David Johns <johnsdm@xxxxxxxxxxx.com>
wrote:

Defense is not good enough. Biodiversity is being lost.



*From:* ecocentric-alliance@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.com [mailto:
ecocentric-alliance@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.com] *On Behalf Of *Wayne Tyson
*Sent:* Sunday, January 9, 2022 4:49 PM
*To:* David Blackwell; Digest Recipients
*Subject:* Re: Relating to the human supremacist/dominance mindsets



Find a hole in the dike; insert finger.



WT



On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 8:48 AM David Blackwell <davybl483@xxxxxx.com>
wrote:

In (partial) reply to David J and anyone else interested.



(Speaking not just from the armchair)



Yes, of course, things like wilderness protection, the MTI mindset,
reductions in human consumption and population size, no more subsidizing
fossil fuels, and on and on, need to happen. No question. Knowing what
changes have to happen is not now the main problem, however. How to bring
them about is. As regards the well-being of wildlife in their own right,
this is the last thing on most people’s minds. In other words, looking at
the prospects for needed change in a large-scale way at least can be
pretty
depressing. And again, what accordingly can or should one do as an
individual in face of this? What should the options be?



It looks like besides the foregoing (for one big thing) that societal
breakdown, with amorality prevalent, may well now be on the way in the
U.S., the world’s most influential country, and entail untold conflict
and
suffering, not to mention impact on non-human life and the health
generally
of Earth’s natural ecosystems.



To repeat: what implications does all this have for how we might most
ethically and meaningfully respond, both as individuals and in
collaboration with others, in bringing about the changes needed? (I take
no
pleasure in the way things are, by the way.)  Best, David B.


*The quantum ethical leap that beckons:*



*Respecting the natural world and non-human life as having intrinsic
value
and worth.*









On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:54 PM David Johns <johnsdm@xxxxxxxxxxx.com>
wrote:

I think there is no substitute for direct protection, by designating and
enforcing wilderness and protected areas. But we also need to more
effective at addressing causes--bringing about a greatly reduced human
population and consumption. Much of that may require action we are not
comfortable with. No social welfare for more than one kid, if there is
more
than one, everyone gets cut off. Let people be stupid—too dumb to get
vaccinated, so be it. Stop subsidizing growth and even much development.
40
years ago the Chinese take off of the last few years would have been
praised by most as progress. And in some respects it is. But it’s an
ecological disaster to have 300-400 million more American-equivalents.
They
are just as oafish, myopic and shallow as Euro-American before them. Let
roads go to hell. Climate change is going to happen—likely 4◦C or more,
which some predict will bring an end to industrial ag. That could bring a
major reduction in human population. Be prepared to defend wildlife from
being eaten. Even Pope Frank has gone off the rails—not breeding is
selfish
says the celibate old man. Ridicule is in order. We have lots of right
wing
Catholics and Mormons in the Americas . Call them out. Etc etc etc. Very
illiberal, I know.



*From:* David Blackwell [mailto:davybl483@xxxxxx.com]
*Sent:* Saturday, January 8, 2022 9:32 AM
*To:* David Johns
*Subject:* Re: Relating to the human supremacist/dominance mindsets



In (partial) response to David J of Jan. 6.



David, one could wonder what you are saying means in practice—in more
specific terms. For instance—perhaps in particular—it is the ongoing
ecocidal actions of our own species that is so negatively impacting the
well-being of other species; and, from an ecocentric advantage point,
what
does this imply for how time and energy might be most advantageously be
spent in trying to ensure the health and wellness of non-human animal
life?



(Above just for one thing in reply to your post—which, yes, raises other
big questions. And, by the way, unreservedly agree with you on the
desirability in principle of the need for far, far greater emphasis than
currently is the case, by members of our own species, on protecting and
conserving non-human species, and the individuals who comprise them, as,
presumably, an end—in contrast to utilitarian—value.) Best, David B.



On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 3:21 AM David Johns <johnsdm@xxxxxxxxxxx.com>
wrote:

Dear David,



I can understand your view, but ultimately spending time & energy trying
to save an ecocidal (flawed) animal, and according an equal time and
energy
to the millions of other species makes no sense given limited time and
energy. It is to suggest one species—ours—is equal in value to all the
others. If humans were not so destructive it might be otherwise. But they
are destructive so it seems according all sort of energy to saving humans
is to in fact put ourselves first. Saving life on Earth and saving humans
into the bargain are likely mutually exclusive. And though we can’t know
that ahead of time, the cost humans impose on the Earth is too much to
risk. We have choices and choose badly. By virtue of the structures we
create, among other things.



Jeffers rings true to me:



Original Sin, 1948



…they had dug a pitfall

And caught a mammoth, but how could their sticks and stones

Reach the life in that hide? They danced around the pit, shrieking

With ape excitement, flinging sharp flints in vain, and the stench of
their bodies

Stained the white air of dawn; but presently one of them

Remembered the yellow dancer, wood-eating fire

That guards the cave mouth; he ran and fetched him, and others

Gathered sticks at the wood’s edge; they made a blaze

And pushed it into the pit, and they fed it high, around the mired sides

Of their huge prey. They watched the long hairy trunk

Waver over the stifle-trumpeting pain,

And they were happy.

…

…, hour after hour, the happy hunters

Roasted their living meat slowly to death.


These are the people.

This is the human dawn. As for me, I would rather

Be a worm in a wild apple than a son of man.





Carmel Point 1954



The extraordinary patience of things!

…

… It knows the people are a tide

That swells and in time will ebb, and all

Their works dissolve. …

…

We must uncenter our minds from ourselves;

We must unhumanize our views a little, and become confident

As the rock and ocean that we are made from.



The King of Beasts  (III: 138)



Cattle in the slaughter-pens, laboratory dogs

Slowly tortured to death, flogged horses, trapped fur-bearers, Agonies in
the snow,

            splintering your needle teeth on chill steel,--look:

Mankind, your Satans, are not very happy either. I wish you had seen the
battle squalor,

            the bombings

The screaming fire-deaths. I wish you could watch the endless hunger, the
cold, the

            moaning, the hopelessness.

I wish you could smell the Russian and German torture camps. It is quite
natural the two-

            footed beast

That inflicts terror, the cage, enslavement, torment and death on all
other animals

Should eat the dough that he mixes and drink the death-cup. It is just
and
decent. And it

            will increase, I think.



Best, David









*From:* ecocentric-alliance@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.com [mailto:
ecocentric-alliance@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.com] *On Behalf Of *David Blackwell
*Sent:* Monday, January 3, 2022 10:27 AM
*To:* Digest Recipients

*Subject:* Re: Relating to the human supremacist/dominance mindsets



Post in response to David Johns' of December 31



For deep reasons of personal history and experience over more than eight
decades, I see there being obligation to respect and show caring for both
non-human Nature and our own species. The inclusion of the former being
ecocentrism’s distinguishing and paramount characteristic—and a critical
need.



The difference in question with what I take as David J’s genuine held
viewpoint and stance, while in no way downplaying the fact of humankind’s
ecocidal behaviour and manifestations of terrible cruelty, in itself,
yes,
leaves unaddressed key questions relating to what to do on the part of
those who care, and are free from unwarranted technological optimism, in
face of the apparent reality of the (almost anyway) inevitably
cataclysmic
direction in which things are heading.



(It is perhaps of note from which there may be learnings that people who
are aware and accept the apparent reality under consideration, and who
care, do not necessarily—usually don’t?—as a result find themselves in a
paralysingly depressive state.)



David B.


*The quantum ethical leap that beckons:*



*Respecting the natural world and non-human life as having intrinsic
value
and worth.*









On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 10:19 PM David Johns <johnsdm@xxxxxxxxxxx.com>
wrote:

Dear David,



Yes, very sad about the human spirit. But on the whole we are too dumb to
get it and have done it too are selves. The best insight remains from
Rees,
who thinks we are headed to 4◦C, which will be the end of industrial ag
and
maybe 6 billion of us. Without 6 billion there might be some
opportunities
for other species. One thing is certain—no bodies, not spirit to embrace
angst and self-pity.



Best, David



*From:* ecocentric-alliance@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.com [mailto:
ecocentric-alliance@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.com] *On Behalf Of *David Blackwell
*Sent:* Thursday, December 30, 2021 3:25 PM
*To:* Digest Recipients
*Subject:* Relating to the human supremacist/dominance mindsets



In her surely notable blog post “Broken mirror” in Earth Tongues (
https://blog.ecologiicalcitizen.net/2021/12/07/broken-mirror/), the
author (Eileen Crist) writes that “…in the not-too-distant future—should
things continue as they are going (referring to human-caused ecological
disasters)—the realization that humanity turned out to be perpetrator of
the planet’s Sixth Mass Extinction will not sit well with the human
spirit”
and that “on a shattered planet, there will be psychic suffering in the
experience of a bottomless loss that no technological fix can alleviate.”
This is pretty significant (self-evidently so?), and as one who hadn’t
thought specifically in these terms have drawn attention to here as there
may be others who haven’t either. (Acknowledging at same time that more
than one person on this list has written a book that likely bears
importantly on the theme under consideration.)



To add while at it (don’t think am misrepresenting on this). Eileen’s
blog
piece also includes the words, “Whether or not such solutions
(geoengineering the climate, vertical farms, solar panels, wind farms,
etc.) will succeed (in reversing human-caused ecological disasters) on
their own terms is beside the point” (i.e. the “psychic misery” drawn to
attention in above paragraph). This sentence flagged because of the words
success “on their own terms,” and the implied leaving open of
this--contrary to the claims of William Rees and others--of the
possibility
of success as conventionally understood and pursued, e.g. in an article
the
U.K. Guardian has been continuously carrying since last October 31,
entitled “Reasons to be hopeful: the climate solutions available now,"and
authored by the Guardian environment editor Dale Carrington and several
others. “We have every tool we need to tackle the climate crisis,” the
article claims. (Being far from the only source so saying.)



David B.



*The quantum ethical leap that beckons:*



*Respecting the natural world and non-human life as having intrinsic
value
and worth.*





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*The quantum ethical leap that beckons:*



*Respecting the natural world and non-human life as having intrinsic
value
and worth.*





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