UKTC Archive

RE: Estimating tree ages based on trunk diameter/girth

Subject: RE: Estimating tree ages based on trunk diameter/girth
From: Penlington, Robert
Date: Jan 12 2022 13:36:56
Older trees may not occlude.
How could one be confident to line up a 3mm bore route to encapsulate the 
pith centre?

Kind regards
Robert

From: uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info> 
On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
Sent: 12 January 2022 13:29
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
Subject: Re: Estimating tree ages based on trunk diameter/girth



How could you be sure of lining up the core route accurately enough towards
the pith, bearing in mind the pith isn’t always located centrally. Knowledge
and Experience
Also wouldn’t that method expose tissue for infection. You are drilling
3mm holes which have been shown to occlude within weeks during secondary
growth. Further one drilling surley is not a problem when you look
compared with pruning. Trees have survived with insects/birds/mammals etc.
and will survive a 3 mm hole.

Michael Richardson B.Sc.F., BCMA
Ontario MTCU Qualified Arborist
Richardson Tree Care
Richardsontreecare.ca<http://Richardsontreecare.ca>
613-475-2877
800-769-9183

<http://www.richardsontreecare.ca/images/Tree_Doc_logo_email.png<http://www.richardsontreecare.ca/images/Tree_Doc_logo_email.png>>



On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 8:04 AM Penlington, Robert <
Robert.Penlington@xxxxxxxxx.gov.uk<mailto:Robert.Penlington@xxxxxxxxx.gov.uk>>
 wrote:

Michael,
How could you be sure of lining up the core route accurately enough
towards the pith, bearing in mind the pith isn’t always located centrally.
Also wouldn’t that method expose tissue for infection

Kind regards
Robert

From: 
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>
 
<uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
Sent: 12 January 2022 12:36
To: UK Tree Care 
<uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
Subject: Re: Estimating tree ages based on trunk diameter/girth



If you are in need of accurate information you should be sampling the trees
and counting rings.

Core samples and counting rings can be done.

Fast counts can be done using a Rinntech Resistograph.

Michael




Michael Richardson B.Sc.F., BCMA
Ontario MTCU Qualified Arborist
Richardson Tree Care
Richardsontreecare.ca<http://Richardsontreecare.ca><http://Richardsontreecare.ca<http://Richardsontreecare.ca>>
613-475-2877
800-769-9183

<http://www.richardsontreecare.ca/images/Tree_Doc_logo_email.png<http://www.richardsontreecare.ca/images/Tree_Doc_logo_email.png><
http://www.richardsontreecare.ca/images/Tree_Doc_logo_email.png<http://www.richardsontreecare.ca/images/Tree_Doc_logo_email.png>>>



On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 7:22 AM 
elsteadbysea@xxxxxxxxxxx.com<mailto<mailto:elsteadbysea@xxxxxxxxxxx.com%3cmailto>:
elsteadbysea@xxxxxxxxxxx.com<mailto:elsteadbysea@xxxxxxxxxxx.com>> <
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info%3cmailto:uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>>
 wrote:

Has anyone used this document from the FC?

https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/documents/6765/FCIN012.pdf<https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/documents/6765/FCIN012.pdf><
https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/documents/6765/FCIN012.pdf<https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/documents/6765/FCIN012.pdf>>

Phillip


-----Original Message-----
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uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info%3cmailto>:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
 <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info%0b>> 
<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
On Behalf Of Tim Moya
Sent: 12 January 2022 12:16
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
<mailto:uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info%3cmailto:%0b>> 
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>>
Subject: RE: Estimating tree ages based on trunk diameter/girth

Yes - What Grumpy said
Tim Moya

-----Original Message-----
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uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
 <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info%0b>> 
<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
On Behalf Of 
grumpy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk<mailto<mailto:grumpy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk%3cmailto>:
grumpy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk<mailto:grumpy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk>>
Sent: 12 January 2022 11:50
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
<mailto:uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info%3cmailto:%0b>> 
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>>
Subject: RE: Estimating tree ages based on trunk diameter/girth

Paul

You already have a reference to "Mitchell". No doubt someone will point
out "White" shortly. Neither were mensurationists or statisticians,
although clearly both collected loads of data. I frankly am appalled by
what I read and hear about tree age and diameter.

I realise most of us need a good old beard to stroke (sorry, ladies) when
we are asked how old a tree is. We stroke our beard (I don't have one) to
impress on our listeners how much thinking we are doing and how much
experience we are recollecting when we examine the size of a tree and
come
up with a number. Ooooo this one must be at least 200 years old, I say.
Gasps of adulation arrive and we all go off happy, respectful of this
ancient tree. It's frankly nonsense:

Trees vary considerably in their diameter growth. Partially determined by
species, partly determined by site, partly determined by density. The
latter simply acknowledges that competition from nearby vegetation and
trees alters growth rates - closely growing trees will fatten less
quickly
than free growing trees. Yes obvious in a spacing trial in early years,
but
less obvious with widely grown trees when they are large.

The situation was acknowledged in Forestry Commission Bulletin No 1 dated
1919 Collection of Data as to the Rate of Growth of Timber.

We all know that weather and climate alter growth, so attempting to have
a
figure for all species in all conditions is well.......an average. It's
of
very little use in determining age of individual stands, and in
particular
individual trees. If someone were to bring this into a court room, I
would
have a field day.

Yes, it would be nice to have a simple solution to a complex problem. The
solution is to kick councils up the backside and say 50 year old, or even
20 year old Area orders are unworkable......and if you want to prosecute
people for tree works to marginally aged trees you may have a problem. I
realise you have a practical problem in front of you, but there is no
easy
answer. You are better off trying to find old aerial photos from the
second
world war (or more recent if that is the age of the TPO)

Before someone does mention "White" look at his FC Information Note dated
1998. Table 1a sort of acknowledges the significant variation in growth
rates possible. But without some sight of the data on which this table is
based or any analysis arising from it you could get seriously misled. All
of the figures are averages. Thus expectation that growth might be
greater
on a "good" site than on an "average" site doesn't help much. Poorly
growing trees on a good site are likely to grow less than fast growing
trees on an average site. Using these to estimate the age of trees using
these averages is as good as stroking my beard......

A good source of tree growth data? The only source is Forest Research but
clearly their data is almost entirely for plantations & forest species. I
doubt they have much data on widely spaced trees and even less on open
grown trees. I wonder whether they hold Mitchell's and White's data and
whether it was approved for professional use (i.e. anecdotal data doesn't
stand up to much scrutiny), or just binned?. Zero data on the wider range
of trees used in arboriculture? I approached them a little while ago to
see
if they have any data on yew growth. Zero was the reply. You can find a
synopsis, but no growth data in a paper in the RFS QJF in early 2021 or
late 2020. I am afraid I don't have the specific reference to hand but I
think it contains "Permanent Sample Plots" in the title. Richard Baden
came
back to me with a very long email & you could explore what data they
have,
but Richard's remit may be limited to the plots:

Richard Baden (email using @forestresearch.gov.uk)
Assistant Sample Plot Officer
Forest Mensuration, Modelling and Forecasting Forest Research Alice Holt
Lodge Farnham GU10 4LH

They may have a dusty cabinet of growth data that no-one has looked at
for
a while. That's always the impression I get when I go to Alice Holt.

Jon


-----Original Message-----
From: 
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info%3cmailto>:
uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
 <uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info
<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info%0b>> 
<mailto:uktc-request@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>
On Behalf Of Paul Barton
Sent: 12 January 2022 08:56
To: UK Tree Care <uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:
<mailto:uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info%3cmailto:%0b>> 
uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info<mailto:uktc@xxxxxx.tree-care.info>>>
Subject: Estimating tree ages based on trunk diameter/girth

Dear collective,

I wonder if you can help me? I am looking for a simple method to estimate
tree ages as part of a preliminary review of some area TPOs - i.e. to
assess whether trees that are present now were most likely present (or
not)
on the year the area TPO was served.

I have come across various apps that claim to give an age based on trunk
girth but after a brief test they seem to overestimate age (based on my
experience only) as I suspect they are based on forestry plantation trees
which tend to be more slender over time than open grown trees.

I came across this document from Newport council (

https://www.newport.gov.uk/documents/Leisure-and-Tourism/Countryside/Measuring-Trees.pdf<https://www.newport.gov.uk/documents/Leisure-and-Tourism/Countryside/Measuring-Trees.pdf>
<
https://www.newport.gov.uk/documents/Leisure-and-Tourism/Countryside/Measuring-Trees.pdf<https://www.newport.gov.uk/documents/Leisure-and-Tourism/Countryside/Measuring-Trees.pdf>
)
which suggests that tree growth rates could be split out in to slow,
moderate and fast - each with a corresponding ‘average’ annual girth
increase. These are given as:

• Slow - 1.88 cm per year
• Average - 2.5 cm per year
• Fast - 3.13 cm per year

Using such values would allow me to classify species by growth rate
category and therefore have a ready reckoner to estimate tree ages based
on
their girth. It can never be claimed to be very accurate but for the
purpose of quickly assessing hundreds of trees a repeatable documented
method would be useful.

BUT I don’t know if the above growth rate values are based on good data,
ideally in the UK.

Finally to the point (congratulations if you lasted this long)…can anyone
point me to a reliable source of UK tree growth rate data so that I could
verify or amend the above suggested rates of growth?

Kind regards,

Paul Barton

www.barton-hyett.co.uk<http://www.barton-hyett.co.uk><http://www.barton-hyett.co.uk<http://www.barton-hyett.co.uk>>
 | Barton Hyett
Associates Ltd | Arboricultural
Experts





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